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    #46
    The US politicians have signed the coronavirus package.
    The amount is $2.2 trillion.
    The population of the USA is 327 million.

    I did the math:
    $2200000000000/327000000=$6727

    Each American is supposed to get $6,727, but she is getting only a $1,200 check. Where is the remaining 83% or $5,500?

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      #47
      Originally posted by Vincenze View Post
      The US politicians have signed the coronavirus package.
      The amount is $2.2 trillion.
      The population of the USA is 327 million.

      I did the math:
      $2200000000000/327000000=$6727

      Each American is supposed to get $6,727, but she is getting only a $1,200 check. Where is the remaining 83% or $5,500?
      Are you new here or what? That money is allocated for "things," now don't ask any more questions as that wouldn't be "nice."

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        #48
        I think(?) it was based on the Federal Minimum wage which is $7.25/hr. For one month that's roughly $1200.

        In Canada, you'd be getting support to the tune of $2000/month for 4 months.

        And for comparison, corporations here got support to the tune of ~$18,000 per capita (I believe). So, member Vincenze is kinda getting at the right idea -- we are pretty darn undervalued in the grand scheme of things.
        1990 BMW 325iC Triple Black Hard Top, Self-Wrenched, Original Owner Family

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          #49
          Originally posted by phillipj View Post
          So, member Vincenze is kinda getting at the right idea -- we are pretty darn undervalued in the grand scheme of things.
          I just wonder who picks up the bill.
          Are my calculations correct: each American gets $1,200 and pays $5,500 to the rich? A family of four has to pay $5,500x4=$22,000, essentially the price of a brand new car.


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            #50
            Originally posted by Vincenze View Post
            I just wonder who picks up the bill.
            Are my calculations correct: each American gets $1,200 and pays $5,500 to the rich? A family of four has to pay $5,500x4=$22,000, essentially the price of a brand new car.
            Your math / calculations aren't really correct, only because this gets vastly more complicated than that. Despite what they claim, the net Stimulus is actually not $2.2 Trillion, it's more like $6-10 Trillion. No one "picks up the bill", it just gets added to the Debt. And not everyone gets the one time $1200 check. If you want to ask the crazy question "where does the money come from?" it might sound bizarre, but we just print more (It's actually just done on a computer). All of this is very very mind-blowing if you start to research the details of it, definitely look into it.

            I think your heart and intuition is in the right place, though. The American people will get tossed a few crumbs as Congress & the Administration takes care of it real constituents: Corporate America.
            1990 BMW 325iC Triple Black Hard Top, Self-Wrenched, Original Owner Family

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              #51
              Originally posted by Vincenze View Post
              The US politicians have signed the coronavirus package.
              The amount is $2.2 trillion.
              The population of the USA is 327 million.

              I did the math:
              $2200000000000/327000000=$6727

              Each American is supposed to get $6,727, but she is getting only a $1,200 check. Where is the remaining 83% or $5,500?

              So let me ask you a question if I may.

              It's all well and good to give people some cash to help them get through these tough times, I support it. But what good does giving someone a month of living expenses do, if when the month is up, their place of employment is bankrupt and no longer operating? All you did at that point was to delay the pain of bankruptcy and no income by a month.


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              www.gutenparts.com
              One stop shopping for NEW, USED and EURO PARTS!

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                #52
                Originally posted by Vincenze View Post
                I just wonder who picks up the bill.
                Are my calculations correct: each American gets $1,200 and pays $5,500 to the rich? A family of four has to pay $5,500x4=$22,000, essentially the price of a brand new car.

                No one. The Fed, which is completely unnecessary, will just print more money, devalue the currency and welcome the wave of inflation.
                Need parts now? Need them cheap? steve@blunttech.com
                Chief Sales Officer, Midwest Division—Blunt Tech Industries

                www.gutenparts.com
                One stop shopping for NEW, USED and EURO PARTS!

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                  #53
                  Originally posted by z31maniac View Post

                  No one. The Fed, which is completely unnecessary, will just print more money, devalue the currency and welcome the wave of inflation.
                  Money wasn't "printed". It's actually an advance on your future tax returns . As a small business owner, I looked into this package immediately and decided against applying for two reasons - one it being a loan, and two not sure my business will "need" it due to the nature of it (very small indy BMW/machining/fab). This business stimulus is a loan, in which the way I read it, only $10k is forgiven if you keep 80% of your employees through the crisis. Then after 1yr, this stimulus must be paid back. Honestly, I thought it was genius vs the way the '09 package was implemented (aka "printed $$). The wife and I were discussing it this morning while getting ready for work since we still have 3 minors at home, she found yesterday that the child credit is just an advance for your 2020 EIC - so our return will be a fair bit smaller for the '21 refund (we claim "0 + withhold" to have a fatty return). This makes me feel not so bad about taking the cash right now - fortunately the wife works in the finance arena and can WFH, and being such a small shop, there's not any foot traffic, so human contact is low.
                  john@m20guru.com
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                    #54
                    Originally posted by Z31maniac
                    No one. The Fed, which is completely unnecessary, will just print more money, devalue the currency and welcome the wave of inflation.
                    Originally posted by ForcedFirebird View Post

                    Money wasn't "printed". It's actually an advance on your future tax returns . As a small business owner, I looked into this package immediately and decided against applying for two reasons - one it being a loan, and two not sure my business will "need" it due to the nature of it (very small indy BMW/machining/fab). This business stimulus is a loan, in which the way I read it, only $10k is forgiven if you keep 80% of your employees through the crisis. Then after 1yr, this stimulus must be paid back. Honestly, I thought it was genius vs the way the '09 package was implemented (aka "printed $$). The wife and I were discussing it this morning while getting ready for work since we still have 3 minors at home, she found yesterday that the child credit is just an advance for your 2020 EIC - so our return will be a fair bit smaller for the '21 refund (we claim "0 + withhold" to have a fatty return). This makes me feel not so bad about taking the cash right now - fortunately the wife works in the finance arena and can WFH, and being such a small shop, there's not any foot traffic, so human contact is low.

                    The recent "Stimulus" is confusing, there's no doubt about that. There has actually been several different stimulus measures lately, aside from the $2Trillion+ Bill. This surely does include "Quantative Easing" by the FED, just like in the Financial Crisis. And, yes, the $1200 check portion is actually an advance credit on your future tax return. So, sorry: if you made $75k or less last year and thought you were getting a $1200 Coronavirus check of completely "free" money, you are not. "We the People" get relatively very little.

                    I think what's most confusing to most people is where does all this money come from? It's a mind-boggling amount of money. If you were to count out 2 Trillion individual dollars it would supposedly take over 25,000 years(!) As I understand it, the money comes from two buckets: one bucket is money that already exists, the other is money that is created out of thin air.

                    1. The US Government will borrow tons of money by issuing Treasury Bonds (selling Debt) and there's a ton of Investors out there buying US Treasury Bonds. It is still considered one of the safest investments you could make. Even with all our existing debt and problems, we look like a relatively strong investment in the World.

                    2. The other bucket is the Federal Reserve Bank. The Fed will essentially lend to the Government by buying up Treasury Bonds as well. Notably, this time around it has promised it will do so in an UNLIMITED fashion if it has to. And where does that money come from? The Fed creates it out of thin air. People use the slang "printing money" but actually they just add credit to a balance sheet on a computer, then they transfer it around to to other banks who start "loaning" it out in a variety of ways. In theory, if you kept "printing", you could create a hyperinflation spiral where the dollar keeps losing it's value, and you have to keep borrowing & creating more and more money, only for the dollar to be worth less & less, and eventually the value of money completely breaks down. While extremely unlikely for America, scenarios like this have played out in smaller, unstable countries in the World before.

                    CBS does an ok job of explaining it here if my take was confusing. There's also other aspects of this where they plan to leverage the money (in ways I don't fully understand) to make it worth 10x more in certain scenarios, of which they are doling out to huge corporations. If anyone can explain any of this better, please feel free to take a shot!
                    Last edited by phillipj; 04-04-2020, 10:31 AM.
                    1990 BMW 325iC Triple Black Hard Top, Self-Wrenched, Original Owner Family

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                      #55
                      Right. That's why I used "print money" in quotes. There's about $1.5t actual currency in circulation, that's not going to change any time soon - something like 95% of the world's money is "thin air" or electronic notes. When I was in economics (back when the USSR was thing lol), one lesson that stood out was about the communists printing large quantities of cash for the gov't themselves and before long it would take a wheel barrow full of it to purchase a loaf of bread.

                      When the gov't gives grants and this electronic money, it's essentially "printing" money since it's adding to the total amount, not just what's in circulation. Earlier stimuli have "printed" money in the fact that there was no money to give, they added to the total as a temporary aid to failing large corps, and I believe is the reason there was a huge spike in inflation in the last 10yr. When I was young, inflation was slow and steady - minimum wage was $4, and you could make a living at $8. I was a skilled labor at the time (journeyman mason) and making about $17, my 2br house cost $35k - ex wife was a chef and was making $9. Today that same job pays $21 and the same house is listed for $275k. Wages have not kept up with the cost of living.

                      Remember your grandparents saying "Bread was a nickle when I was a kid"? Well in the last ~30yr of being in the work force, I'm not even a grandparent yet, and can saw this kind of inflation first hand. I clearly remember paying a $0.35 for a candy bar, gallon of milk was about a buck, motor oil was $0.98/qt, and I could fill my truck for less than a $20 bill.
                      john@m20guru.com
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                      Transaction feedback: Here, here and here. Thanks :D

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                        #56
                        Federal Reserve Bank Total Assets (Their own Chart linked):

                        Wed Feb 26, 2020: $4.158 Trillion

                        Wed April 1, 2020: $5.812 Trillion
                        This is essentially a very comprehensive safety net for Wall Street and Corporate America. Re-examine what happened in 2008 and what is happening Now. In my opinion, people really need to re-think their ideas of What is Capitalism and What is Socialism in America.

                        1990 BMW 325iC Triple Black Hard Top, Self-Wrenched, Original Owner Family

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                          #57
                          Originally posted by ForcedFirebird View Post
                          I was a skilled labor at the time (journeyman mason) and making about $17, my 2br house cost $35k - ex wife was a chef and was making $9. Today that same job pays $21 and the same house is listed for $275k. Wages have not kept up with the cost of living.
                          Wow, what a deal, $275k! Where is this? Seriously, a poorly re-done 600sqft home a few doors from me just sold a week ago for $750k. And I live in a neighborhood where people sleep destitute on the sidewalk a block away, or in their car.

                          Yeah, it's unfortunate... Wages haven't really increased in 40 years. TVs sure are cheap, but all the essentials - school, healthcare, housing, etc. - are through the roof. I get depressed when I hear health insurers may raise their premiums up to 40% next year due to the fallout from CV.

                          Hm. On the positive, with the way gas prices may get, we could very well see a $20 fill-up in some parts of the country.
                          Last edited by phillipj; 04-04-2020, 11:40 AM.
                          1990 BMW 325iC Triple Black Hard Top, Self-Wrenched, Original Owner Family

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                            #58
                            Originally posted by phillipj View Post
                            Federal Reserve Bank Total Assets (Their own Chart linked):

                            Wed Feb 26, 2020: $4.158 Trillion

                            Wed April 1, 2020: $5.812 Trillion
                            This is essentially a very comprehensive safety net for Wall Street and Corporate America. Re-examine what happened in 2008 and what is happening Now. In my opinion, people really need to re-think their ideas of What is Capitalism and What is Socialism in America.
                            Thanks. That was the information that was eluding me, and it's a very nice graphic to demonstrate my previous post. So, we can defintely expect the value of the dollar to tank even more. :(

                            EDIT: Fun site to see inflation....

                            https://www.usinflationcalculator.com/

                            We are now up to 50% just in the last 20yr. :(
                            Last edited by ForcedFirebird; 04-06-2020, 05:03 AM.
                            john@m20guru.com
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                            Transaction feedback: Here, here and here. Thanks :D

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                              #59
                              Originally posted by phillipj View Post

                              Wow, what a deal, $275k! Where is this? Seriously, a poorly re-done 600sqft home a few doors from me just sold a week ago for $750k. And I live in a neighborhood where people sleep destitute on the sidewalk a block away, or in their car.

                              Yeah, it's unfortunate... Wages haven't really increased in 40 years. TVs sure are cheap, but all the essentials - school, healthcare, housing, etc. - are through the roof. I get depressed when I hear health insurers may raise their premiums up to 40% next year due to the fallout from CV.

                              Hm. On the positive, with the way gas prices may get, we could very well see a $20 fill-up in some parts of the country.
                              Location, location, location. Small town of Bradenton was where I purchased my first home - but since moving to the South Florida tri-county, that would at least double with the current market. Curious to see what happens to real estate over the next 12-18mos.
                              john@m20guru.com
                              Links:
                              Transaction feedback: Here, here and here. Thanks :D

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                                #60
                                Originally posted by ForcedFirebird View Post
                                Curious to see what happens to real estate over the next 12-18mos.
                                I think we all anticipate a downturn, but with so much uncertainty currently, it's difficult to know how long and how bad. Desired areas are always going hold their value and the very wealthiest will always be building or buying though, just not as large or as frequent. I believed we were seeing a peak as it was, before CV19.

                                I'm curious to see how the lack of ability to pay rent and mortgages will hit the enormous mortgage backed securities market. I assume the Fed will step in to bail it all out when things get really bad. A worry I see could be that financial institutions could have some very over-leveraged exposure, similar to in 08, opening them up for devastation and weird domino effects we can't even fully anticipate. I know that the Government has already been changing rules/making exemptions on the fly for Banks that have very risky bets based on the oil market, which has plunged lately. Just makes me think what if CV19 is the straw that breaks the camels back in some of these other derivative markets that are loosely regulated.

                                1990 BMW 325iC Triple Black Hard Top, Self-Wrenched, Original Owner Family

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