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    Originally posted by 2mAn View Post
    BTW Who the F actually wants Biden in there?
    Older voters mostly. Older voters are more likely than younger voters to answer their phones for political polls. This is why polls are showing Biden as the frontrunner. I think there's a huge amount of younger votors who would never vote Biden and dont answer their phone.

    Originally posted by 2mAn View Post
    Its a guarantee that he would lose to Trump
    Biden would probably lose worse than Hillary.

    If Bernie and/or Warren were the nominees they would win.

    Last edited by Victell; 01-14-2020, 05:15 PM.

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      Originally posted by Victell View Post
      Older voters mostly. Older voters are more likely than younger voters to answer their phones for political polls. This is why polls are showing Biden as the frontrunner. I think there's a huge amount of younger votors who would never vote Biden and dont answer their phone.


      Biden would probably lose worse than Hillary.

      If Bernie and/or Warren were the nominees they would win.
      Bernie and Warren has less of a chance than Biden IMO

      They're the furthest to the "left"
      Originally posted by wholepailofwater
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        Which can be argued is exactly what gives them a chance, more of a foil to Trump. Biden would seem closer to Trump, which might not play with a portion of the Dem voters.

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          Originally posted by mbonder View Post
          Which can be argued is exactly what gives them a chance, more of a foil to Trump. Biden would seem closer to Trump, which might not play with a portion of the Dem voters.

          I think Bernie/Warren are too far left for swing voters and I suspect that's going to be the key. Not the hardliners that come out to the polls for both sides.
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            Originally posted by z31maniac View Post


            I think Bernie/Warren are too far left for swing voters and I suspect that's going to be the key. Not the hardliners that come out to the polls for both sides.
            Couldn't disagree more!

            This is definitely not about getting your quasi-republican swing aunt or uncle to somehow decide to go Progressive. It's about turning out all the people who are already there, who usually stay home because they lost hope a long time ago that there's anyone out there who actually cares about them, who will stand up for them.

            ---

            And by the way, the country is a lot further "left" than you think -- and "left" means: you are sick of endless war, you want to hold super-powerful companies accountable and pay some taxes for once, you think healthcare and education costs bankrupting the everyday people of this country is a major problem, maybe people should make a living wage. There is majority support in this country for Bernie's core policy planks.

            "too far left" is exactly the tagline that establishment media & politicians want to drum into your head. No different than the often repeated but totally hogwash tagline that a Hillary or a Biden is "most electable".
            Last edited by phillipj; 01-15-2020, 08:22 PM. Reason: edited a bit: I don't think Warren is as "left" as she might appear
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              Originally posted by phillipj View Post

              Couldn't disagree more!

              This is definitely not about getting your quasi-republican swing aunt or uncle to somehow decide to go for bernie or warren. It's about turning out all the people who are already there, who usually stay home because they lost hope a long time ago that there's anyone out there who actually cares about them, who will stand up for them.

              ---

              And by the way, the country is a lot further "left" than you think -- and "left" means: you are sick of endless war, you want to hold super-powerful companies accountable and pay some taxes for once, you think healthcare and education costs bankrupting the everyday people of this country is a major problem, maybe people should make a living wage. There is majority support in this country for Bernie or Warren's core policy planks.

              "too far left" is exactly the tagline that establishment media & politicians want to drum into your head. No different than the often repeated but totally hogwash tagline that a Hillary or a Biden is "most electable".
              Bernie and Liz are awful.

              As we've seen in recent days, Liz totally threw bernie under the bus by essentially saying hes a sexist. If they really cared about their ideas, they would totally work together take the nomination no prob, but instead, we see how much of a fraud Liz is.

              Both of those peeps say they wanted to take the goverment back from "wealthy, well connected people," so it can be run by different wealthy, well connected people... What a joke..
              Originally posted by wholepailofwater
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                I will totally agree with you that Warren's recent attack is pretty awful/unfortunate. Warren’s campaign is desperately in need of some kind of hail-mary / game-changer to improve her odds right before Iowa and comes up with this crap, and you sure don't have to look far to see Warren has trouble telling the truth often about petty things. This should backfire on Warren? but in reality it probably just hurts both Warren and Sanders and helps Biden -- the weakest candidate they could put forward by far.


                Also, MrBurgundy dude, why say Bernie is so awful? You never say why. Do you really think a Bernie wants "different wealthy, well connected people running government"? That doesn't hold up. But maybe you like the uber wealthy people, businesses and foreign governments that call the shots now?

                Last edited by phillipj; 01-15-2020, 09:16 PM.
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                  Originally posted by phillipj View Post
                  Also, MrBurgundy dude, why say Bernie is so awful? You never say why. Do you really think a Bernie wants "different wealthy, well connected people running government"? That doesn't hold up. But maybe you like the uber wealthy people, businesses and foreign governments that call the shots now?
                  Well, for starters, bernie is a wealthy well connected guy who wants to take the place of the current wealthy connected guy, because wealthy connected guys in charge is bad for the people, according to bernie, which is why I do believe that.

                  And I think he is awful because I strongly disagree with is platform of "democratic socialism," which he always throws out there without ever really explaining what that means to him, but is somehow different than traditional socialism. He also just says he wants to give out free this and that, but never explains how it will work or any real plan with substance to it other than saying, "well look at this other country that's doing it." He is the most consistent, I'll give him that. He also seems much more truthful than Warren, but at the end of the day, I really don't like his ideas.

                  My guess is Bernie and Warren are not going to end up on the same ballot, Biden is going to get the nom and loose to Trump in 2020


                  Originally posted by wholepailofwater
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                    Originally posted by MrBurgundy View Post

                    Well, for starters, bernie is a wealthy well connected guy who wants to take the place of the current wealthy connected guy, because wealthy connected guys in charge is bad for the people, according to bernie, which is why I do believe that.

                    And I think he is awful because I strongly disagree with is platform of "democratic socialism," which he always throws out there without ever really explaining what that means to him, but is somehow different than traditional socialism. He also just says he wants to give out free this and that, but never explains how it will work or any real plan with substance to it other than saying, "well look at this other country that's doing it." He is the most consistent, I'll give him that. He also seems much more truthful than Warren, but at the end of the day, I really don't like his ideas.

                    My guess is Bernie and Warren are not going to end up on the same ballot, Biden is going to get the nom and loose to Trump in 2020

                    X2

                    What is happening in the polls and its confusing people is Bernie attracts activist supporters while Biden attracts older moderate dems. Which is why you see so much bernie support on social media etc.. and non for Biden at all but there basically tied in the polls. To think a year ago they wanted party unification no wonder Bernie always gets screwed by the dem establishment and alienate those voters... this who CNN thing is 2016 all over again.

                    And guess who has to stay in DC for the impeachment trial Lizz/Bernie while Biden campaigns, all thanks to Pelosi who would loose millions if a wealth tax happened just like the rest of the rich elite.
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                      Originally posted by MrBurgundy View Post
                      Bernie and Warren has less of a chance than Biden IMO
                      They're the furthest to the "left"
                      Thats exactly why they can win.

                      If the DNC was smart they would realize 1 thing: older voters will hold their nose and vote for Bernie or Liz (or any dem, as they did for Hillary) - but younger voters will NOT hold their nose and vote for Biden.
                      Last edited by Victell; 01-16-2020, 12:52 AM.

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                        Originally posted by Victell View Post

                        Thats exactly why they can win.

                        If the DNC was smart they would realize 1 thing: older voters will hold their nose and vote for Bernie or Liz (or any dem, as they did for Hillary) - but younger voters will NOT hold their nose and for Biden.
                        Well, after what we saw, "they" isn't going to happen anymore since Warren is a retard. If they teamed up, they would have spanked Biden in the polls, but Warren is willing to throw her peer under the bus in her efforts to move up the ladder. IDK if Sanders will be able to get the nom without another popular choice on the same ballot.

                        We'll see. My money is on Biden tho.
                        Originally posted by wholepailofwater
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                          Originally posted by MrBurgundy View Post

                          Well, for starters, bernie is a wealthy well connected guy who wants to take the place of the current wealthy connected guy, because wealthy connected guys in charge is bad for the people, according to bernie, which is why I do believe that.
                          Equating Bernie Sanders and Donald Trump is pretty crazy & disingenuous.


                          Originally posted by MrBurgundy View Post

                          And I think he is awful because I strongly disagree with is platform of "democratic socialism," which he always throws out there without ever really explaining what that means to him, but is somehow different than traditional socialism.
                          So many examples out there of him and others explaining that -- easy to look, it will take you less than a second on youtube. Simple idea: Economic rights are Human rights. On the other hand, what we have now, what Trump definitely is, is Corporate Socialism. Bernie Sanders is just boilerplate 1930's America Franklin Delano Roosevelt and 1960's America Martin Luther King. King put it best in 1968: "This Country has socialism for the Rich and rugged individualism for the Poor."

                          ----

                          Hey, I don't think somehow electing a Bernie would be some sort of silver bullet; this country is SO far right -- completely taken over by lobbyists, powerful corporations, connected billionaires, unlimited election spending... but it would be nice to finally have an advocate for the regular guy and try to bring this country just a little bit back towards center.
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                            Don't think burgs was equating BS with DS at all, but he was pointing out that BS does not exactly represent the typical voter.

                            Think I've said it before, but winning an election isn't just winning over voters, as the party/fundraising base must also support any candidate for them to win. In that context JB is likely the candidate with the best political base, which coupled with his fairly large cross-sectional voter appeal and sometimes folksy demeanor/elder statesman appearance makes him the most likely conventional type nominee IMO.

                            Is he the best nominee for the country, probably not, but will he return political goings on to status quo, probably, and that's not exactly a bad thing in current context. But at the same time we need to make some real changes in the country if we want to be ready for the changes that are probably happening in the next fifty years.

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                              Originally posted by phillipj View Post

                              Equating Bernie Sanders and Donald Trump is pretty crazy & disingenuous.




                              So many examples out there of him and others explaining that -- easy to look, it will take you less than a second on youtube. Simple idea: Economic rights are Human rights. On the other hand, what we have now, what Trump definitely is, is Corporate Socialism. Bernie Sanders is just boilerplate 1930's America Franklin Delano Roosevelt and 1960's America Martin Luther King. King put it best in 1968: "This Country has socialism for the Rich and rugged individualism for the Poor."

                              ----

                              Hey, I don't think somehow electing a Bernie would be some sort of silver bullet; this country is SO far right -- completely taken over by lobbyists, powerful corporations, connected billionaires, unlimited election spending... but it would be nice to finally have an advocate for the regular guy and try to bring this country just a little bit back towards center.
                              I really do think that and I don't think that's a far fetched claim. Sure, trump is way wealthier, but that does not mean that bernie is not also wealthy. Yes, they're far from the same, but bernie, like said above doesn't really represent the typical voter

                              I've seen him, many times, "explain" what democratic socialism means to him.

                              Really, I'm sure you watched this vid, since you quoted directly from it, but you can't say he explains anything in his attempts to.

                              He goes on about what democratic socialism means to him, then his explanations are a few quotes, then goes on about how other countries do it and ends it with democractic socialism means that we have to reform a system that's corrupt.

                              That's not an explanation.

                              https://youtu.be/KQs_lmpQh6Q

                              But If you look into the Democratic Socialists of America, they outline what they want pretty clearly.

                              https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democr...rica#Socialism
                              Last edited by MrBurgundy; 01-16-2020, 01:39 PM.
                              Originally posted by wholepailofwater
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                                ^ I like your link to his speech at Georgetown University; it's a pretty good explanation of the concept IMHO. But if we want to get on specifics to him, then it's better to just take a look at his own issues. Which I think are pretty reasonable.

                                ---

                                As for the comment about Trump and Bernie both being "wealthy" I don't really follow? Personal history and record has far more to do with intent than the number of zeros next to their name-- but, beyond that, if you're Sanders and you and your wife have $2.5 million total in cash and real estate to your name after all these years you've been consistently fighting for civil rights and working class issues, that really in no way puts you in the same sentence with a Donald Trump. That's aside from the fact that the Presidency is more than just one person, and a Sanders would surround himself with dramatically different people in the White House, on both Foreign and Domestic Policy.

                                Interesting reference: Trump's first term cabinet was the wealthiest cabinet of individuals ever in US history. 65 times that of Obama's. 7x that of Bush. With more ex-lobbyists in 3 years than either Bush or Obama in their 8 years. That's really saying something!


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