s50 e30 (non M) or e36 M3

[nando]

That picture is scarily unsafe.

so why are you here?

flip an E36 onto it's roof at speed - I bet it doesn't do any better.

and compared to a car from 2011, I guess the E36 is "Scary unsafe" too?

[nrubenstein]

Neither the E30, nor the E36 have any real roof structure to speak of. It wasn't until the E46 that the 3'ers started developing some rollover resistance. (And really, the E90 is the only one with any serious structure.)

[e30e]

so why are you here?

flip an E36 onto it's roof at speed - I bet it doesn't do any better.

and compared to a car from 2011, I guess the E36 is "Scary unsafe" too?

Absolutely, e9x's are way safer than a e36, but the question came up on pros and cons. A pro for an e36 is safety, a con is its an e36 when comparing it to an e30.

To me, there is no better DD than an e36 m3/4/5...To others it maybe a camry.

[makard]

Define better. If better=faster given equal drivers and competent set-up's for both, the E36 will be faster in all categories by the stopwatch. If fun equals fast, then I defined it for you.

E36 is better than the E30 at:
-Aero
-Rear geometry
-Tire/wheel Fitment
-Rigidity
-swap ability in engines/brakes between years
-available classes to be competitive

Ed

I disagree with majority of the assessment that an e36 will be faster in all categories by the stopwatch. Give the e30 equal power and put the largest contact patch of rubber possible on both cars & I believe the e30 wins on any tight course with the proper suspension setup. The e36 rear suspension gives it an extremely slight edge through long sweeping turns (I have e30s with both OEM e30 rear suspension geometry and e36 rear suspension geometry so I can provide somewhat unique perspective on comparing the two), especially if the e30 suspension setup missed the mark in removing rear camber if it is running small diameter tires and lowered significantly from stock. In the wind, there is no doubt e36 is superior, so if the contest between the two has a significant amount of competition at speeds over 120mph, the e36's aerodynamic advantage might overcome the e30's more nimble handling advantages through tight corners. Rigidity, they both need a proper cage for safety and when they both have a good enough cage to be plenty stiff....the e30 still weighs considerably less than the e36 so the e30 will out accelerate and out brake an e36 due to the significant power/braking to weight advantage. I've had the exact same engine, trans, brakes, diff ratios, dampers, tires/wheels on both e30 and e36 race cars to compare the two generations directly with the chassis being the only real difference and I have found an equally prepped e30 to be the faster of the two. The real issue is the fact that it costs more money to update an e30 chassis to have all of the same things that an e36 chassis has to perform the direct comparison, so most folks just assume the e36 is better because it already has more power, more brakes, etc. But, since most race cars get a new engine, new brakes, new suspension goodies, etc....why not compare apples to apples of having the same go-fast goodies on both chassis. IMO, when one does that (as I have done) the e30 does very well head-to-head!

[iamsam]

Sounds good to me, Mike!!! Besides, an S50 E30 is much more badass than an E36 M3. ;)

[ed94r]

I disagree with majority of the assessment that an e36 will be faster in all categories by the stopwatch. Give the e30 equal power and put the largest contact patch of rubber possible on both cars & I believe the e30 wins on any tight course with the proper suspension setup. The e36 rear suspension gives it an extremely slight edge through long sweeping turns (I have e30s with both OEM e30 rear suspension geometry and e36 rear suspension geometry so I can provide somewhat unique perspective on comparing the two), especially if the e30 suspension setup missed the mark in removing rear camber if it is running small diameter tires and lowered significantly from stock. In the wind, there is no doubt e36 is superior, so if the contest between the two has a significant amount of competition at speeds over 120mph, the e36's aerodynamic advantage might overcome the e30's more nimble handling advantages through tight corners. Rigidity, they both need a proper cage for safety and when they both have a good enough cage to be plenty stiff....the e30 still weighs considerably less than the e36 so the e30 will out accelerate and out brake an e36 due to the significant power/braking to weight advantage. I've had the exact same engine, trans, brakes, diff ratios, dampers, tires/wheels on both e30 and e36 race cars to compare the two generations directly with the chassis being the only real difference and I have found an equally prepped e30 to be the faster of the two. The real issue is the fact that it costs more money to update an e30 chassis to have all of the same things that an e36 chassis has to perform the direct comparison, so most folks just assume the e36 is better because it already has more power, more brakes, etc. But, since most race cars get a new engine, new brakes, new suspension goodies, etc....why not compare apples to apples of having the same go-fast goodies on both chassis. IMO, when one does that (as I have done) the e30 does very well head-to-head!

I totally agree with your assessment, and it's obvious you have done the testing and put in 100% commitment to extracting the best from the rulebook and E30 chassis. I guess that I should clarify and say that in most instances the E36 will beat the E30 to the line, but there are places that the E30 can rival and potentially beat the E36 when prepared and developed to the extreme. You have shown that in real life.

The question was which would be better with an S50 in it, and for most folks the best place to hang an S50 out front and go fast would be an E36 chassis. Picking a class to race in and succeeding in that endeavor with the E30 is possible, but out of the scope of most HPDE and solo folks, and probably 99% of people this forum.

With respect,

Ed

[makard]

I totally agree with your assessment, and it's obvious you have done the testing and put in 100% commitment to extracting the best from the rulebook and E30 chassis. I guess that I should clarify and say that in most instances the E36 will beat the E30 to the line, but there are places that the E30 can rival and potentially beat the E36 when prepared and developed to the extreme. You have shown that in real life.

The question was which would be better with an S50 in it, and for most folks the best place to hang an S50 out front and go fast would be an E36 chassis. Picking a class to race in and succeeding in that endeavor with the E30 is possible, but out of the scope of most HPDE and solo folks, and probably 99% of people this forum.

With respect,

Ed

Yes, I have done a lot with both e30 & e36 chassis. That said, I would prefer to have an S50 in an equally prepared e30 chassis over an e36 chassis (unless the e36 was a Ti) due to the performance advantages that will always enter the equation from the e36 (non Ti) being so much heavier than an e30 (or e36 Ti).

If one is considering it for a DD and/or HPDE car....I prefer the lighter weight. Track tires or street rubber, same contact patch fits both cars, so I like the power to weight advantage. Brake upgrades...same thing.

If one is considering it for an all-out Mod class race car.... I prefer the lighter weight and since a Mod class race car typically includes using upgraded parts in every category, the e30 can be considerably better bang for the buck when it comes to finishing position!

If one is considering it for anything in between.... I still prefer the lighter weight advantages that an e30 (or e36 Ti) brings to the table.

There's another pretty big advantage for S50 in an e30 chassis: Oil starvation issues are virtually non-existent in the front sump oil pan used in an e30 application vs all of the various options to attempt to prevent oil starvation in the rear sump oil pans used in e36 applications. The dual pickup pan conversion that some folks use in e36 applications works quite well, but it is considerably more expensive than using a front sump pan system in an e30 for most folks as they consider budgetary issues of putting an S50 in an e30 or an e36.

BTW, the S50 in an e36 Ti is basically plug & play vs an e30, it may well be the best of both worlds for street/HPDE use, IMO (other than the oil starvation concerns). Our shop has done two such conversions...one with a tricked-out S50 US and another one is in the works right now that will hit the streets soon with an S50B32, fresh Interlagos Blue exterior, and dove gray Vader interior.

[JGood]

Track tires or street rubber, same contact patch fits both cars, so I like the power to weight advantage. Brake upgrades...same thing.

That's the thing though, a good number of people who are autocrossing or doing HPDE's, are not modding them to even 1/4 of what you did. You CAN fit 275's under an e30, but it requires tons of work, and nobody is doing that to their daily driver that they take to an autocross or HPDE 4 times per year. The widest practical tire you can fit on an e30 is a 225. Most people don't do BBK's, just better pads. So when you keep within the reasonable boundaries that most of us do, the e36 has some good benefits over an e30. I'm not saying it would be faster or slower, because I don't know first hand, but keeping within a reasonable modification level, you get bigger tires and bigger brakes, which can be a big deal.

[nando]

I disagree - you can easily fit 235s or 245s on an E30, late or early fenders, without butchering the car. People just don't try, on street cars they like the stretch look for the most part. plus tires in those sizes are expensive, where our group can barely afford 205 nangkangs..

[JGood]

I disagree - you can easily fit 235s or 245s on an E30, late or early fenders, without butchering the car. People just don't try, on street cars they like the stretch look for the most part. plus tires in those sizes are expensive, where our group can barely afford 205 nangkangs..

There are limited tires in those sizes. Yeah, you can run 235 R888's, but you'd be better off with a 225 Hoosier. You can run a 245 Hoosier, but it's skinny, it's contact path is only about 1/2" wider then their 225. A 275 that can fit an e36 (I believe e36's can run 275? Maybe I'm wrong there) is over an inch wider then that.

[nando]

are we talking strictly autox though? the R888 may be the only good tire in 235/15" but there are definitely lots of good 235's in 17" that could be "fun" for an HPDE and even street driving. I thought that was the point of this thread. :p

[JGood]

Well, he asked what would be better for autox/HPDE: e30 or e36. I was basing my assumption on the fact that he's not going to be heavily modifying the car like the c/d mod CCA racers do, or getting a BBK, so with an e36 he can fit wider tires and gets bigger brakes. If e36's can fit 275's, that's a good bit wider then a 235. Even a 255 is a good bit wider. Like I said, I'm not saying that will make it faster, but as far as Mike's point about being able to fit the same size tire on both cars, that's a stretch (no pun intended) for most of us, as we don't mod them that heavily.

[makard]

Well, he asked what would be better for autox/HPDE: e30 or e36. I was basing my assumption on the fact that he's not going to be heavily modifying the car like the c/d mod CCA racers do, or getting a BBK, so with an e36 he can fit wider tires and gets bigger brakes. If e36's can fit 275's, that's a good bit wider then a 235. Even a 255 is a good bit wider. Like I said, I'm not saying that will make it faster, but as far as Mike's point about being able to fit the same size tire on both cars, that's a stretch (no pun intended) for most of us, as we don't mod them that heavily.

It is my opinion that fitting 275 tires on an e36 requires the same sort of modifications as would be necessary to run them on an e30.

[JGood]

It is my opinion that fitting 275 tires on an e36 requires the same sort of modifications as would be necessary to run them on an e30.

Didn't know that, I retract what I said then.

What is the widest tire you can fit under stock arches with track car ride height? 255?

[rThor432]

What is the widest tire you can fit under stock arches with track car ride height? 255?

^^From my experience, yes.