e30 Braces

[Fair!]

I like the Vorshlag braces but wish not to pay more for the treo than i payed for my car. Any help?

Hehehe.... I hear ya. Our $350 E30 gets part upgrades all the time that cost way more than the car. Hell, one rear shock (4300) costs more than triple what the whole car did.



The post below says it best...

Chet, here is the deal: These cars are cheap and easy to buy, but not cheap or easy to build.

Determine what you want out of your car, i.e.: canyon carver, ebay baller, cruiser, show pile/chick magnet, race car, fun DD with amenities, whatever...just make a plan first, then buy pieces for it in a progressive fashion.

Rule #1 in modding: know what you want before you begin.

Agreed. Racing isn't cheap. It can largely be "How fast you wanna go = How much you wanna spend?" Don't try to do a cost analysis on every mod, or you will switch to basket weaving. :D

Yeah agreed. If you can pull it off it can't be that hard. The shock brace in the back is just extra weight for more $$. That is the definition of dumb modifying.

Well, maybe its "dumb modifying" to you (yet you later say you're putting on a strut brace in the front - wouldn't that be equally as dumb?). There are numerous sports cars that come from the factory with front and rear braces these days, but back in the 1980s when these little Bimmers were built not as much engineering attention was placed on chassis rigidity. The advent of shaker table testing, measured torsional frequencies, etc has shown car engineers the light - a rigid chassis makes for a more stable platform for suspension loads to go through, makes for a better load bearing chassis for stickier tires, better handling and ride, etc. When you load up an old wobbly unibody that's had 20 years of pothole busting abuse with fat R compounds in a big corner, big bits of the suspension and chassis start to deform and shake and rattle.

I've got an E30 you're welcome to ride in if you see us at an event. Its got Mason braces front and rear, 600 #/in springs, and poly bushings. The only creaks you hear are the damn poly bushings, which make noise like mad - the chassis is tight and rattle free. My 125K mile E36 M3 street/autocross car also has not a single rattle or squeak - it has had these braces front and back for 2+ years. Every little bit helps, I say.

Again I'll ask if the difference doesn't translate to ANY kind of reduced lap times on a car with poly bushings, spring/bar/shock package, and R compounds how does that unmeasureable difference equate to a handling improvement on the street??

With that said, I'll still install a strut brace in front before spring. And FWIW it won't be a Mason. Not now.

Well, you blast that braces are worthless but then say you will get one. Then say you won't get a Mason - and that's your choice. Maybe John doesn't get the highest marks for online posts, but his fabrication, and engineering and design skills are second to none. He has more experience than most top race engineers out there, and we're lucky to have him building bits for old and new Bimmers alike. Not a ton of new development going on in the aftermarket with E30s, but John still comes out with new parts every year. The new E30 X-brace is a beautiful work of art - I wish our racing class allowed us to use it, 'cause it would be on the car today.



Most importantly, Mason parts don't concentrate on the bling. These are fixed/one piece braces using excellent materials and the best welds you will see. Nothing is there that doesn't add to the FUNCTION of these braces. There's no Chinese import fleaBay "mystery metal" junk here, with chromed hinges and pink paint, nor any carbon fiber or wallet busting materials like titanium or magnesium. Alloy Steel or Aluminum. That's what works and that's what he uses.

Also, keep in mid there's more to a strut or shock tower braces than increasing chassis rigidity (which they will do) - a lot of why we sell them is for REINFORCEMENT of weak chassis areas on BMWs. Strut towers and shock towers are notoriously weak on most 3 series BMWs, and there are thousands of people that have found cracks and even outright catastrophic failures in these areas. I myself had a strut tower crack on a huge pothole, back before we found Mason's strut braces. We've been a dealer of his ever since and they go on every BMW we race.



Look at this rear shock tower brace. Its held on with TWELVE BOLTS included in the kit, plus four more shock tower bolts. It ties together the weakest area of the shock tower and spreads the shock loads over a much large surface, and shores up the back of the car. We've even seen an E30 customer who runs rear shocks converted as true rear coilovers, and full suspension loads going through the shock towers, with only this brace in place - crazy, but its working for him.

If you need proof that this increases chassis rigidity, I dunno, you're either stubborn or something. Sure, we'd all love to test every part made on a shaker table and do the full engineering analysis, then track test every part on/off at the Nurbergring, but that's just not in the cards.

...and one more picture, just for Jay. :p



BTW - I posted in this thread because 1) my company name was brought up in the post #1, 2) I don't like seeing John Mason get slammed and 3) I don't like seeing these braces called "worthless". Everyone is entitled to their opinions, and I think I am entitled to defend ours when called into question. If I am overstepping the boundaries of a "regular member" posting here, then I'm sure a mod will let me know. We aren't a forum sponsor here (yet), and I do try to watch what I post.

Honestly, E30s products don't make up 5% of our sales volume anymore, and I should probably spend more online time on other forums sharing pictures, tech and answering questions, but we race an E30 ourselves and love these little cars. Again, if my posts are seen as inappropriate and "too sales-y" I will get the word from a mod and be on my merry way. I do like reading/posting here, though.

Thanks,

[Fair!]

There's some interesting reading in that corner-carvers link, I actually used to work with "freez'ntexan" at Roush. He worked on the final generation of Cobra's that Bondurant used, he ended up switching out the IRS's for F-body style torque-arm solid axles. He’s a pretty good engineer.

Small world... that "freez'ntexan" would be Brian M, who started MotorForce Engineering, and designed our earliest camber plates... the same company which later became Vorshlag. He's no longer "Freezing", having moved from Detroit back to Texas. :D

Yep, corner-carvers is a great place to argue trivial suspension design details to death, but there is usually an overabundance of tech in each thread to go along with sometimes overly detailed analysis. There's threads I'm subscribed to there that span 7-8+ years. Learned a lot there, of course, but you have to have a thick skin - and don't even think of asking a stupid or previously answered question there...

Cheers,

[BMWLA]

DCColegrove

correct me if im wrong but it was you that brought the x brace and f+r braces to the meet in pomona month or 2 ago right and are you the same dan colegrove from the design studio early 90s or so?

[DCColegrove]

DCColegrove

correct me if im wrong but it was you that brought the x brace and f+r braces to the meet in pomona month or 2 ago right and are you the same dan colegrove from the design studio early 90s or so?

Hmmm, Seems like a loaded question....

But I'll answer it...

Guilty...

Both Counts...

Why do you ask?

[BMWLA]

just confused for a moment was all i just wnted to tell you that i admire the work did and alot of us do

[DCColegrove]

just confused for a moment was all i just wnted to tell you that i admire the work did and alot of us do

Thanks.... Just what I need a cheerleader.

Question: Who is this?

[AlarmedBread]

My experience with a tired old 200k e30 and a front strut brace. Firstly, the car has been wrecked, the drivers side strut tower was bent inwards around .5" more than the pass (which had also sagged inwards) I needed to find around .75" to fit the brace (Zen brace if that matters) so out with the tow straps, park the sucker between two trees and start pullin'. I dropped the strut out of the way and attached the hooks to my camber plates (vorshalg, hey look another plug for somebody) then got ready to pull on both sides until the brace would fit (ghetto? Sure, but I could not find a frame shop who would do this for under $500). The first thing I noticed is how easily and how much the towers moved. I could literally pull with my weight on the straps and see a good 1/4" of deflection on either side without trying too hard. I got kind of curious, so I put a couple bolts back in and reattached the struts, set the car down on the springs and then pulled just one side to induce some body roll which I tought looked like a 'normal' roll on the track. With 500lb/in springs and around 2" of roll, the pass side tower moved about .5" Hmm, maybe some of this extra camber I need to dial in is a result of strut tower deflection as well as body roll? Interesting.... Old setting -4.0 either side.

Got the bar installed, then hit the track and found I had much less heat in the outside of the tires, so started to dial back camber until there was some. Ended up with -3.0 and the tires seemed quite happy there. I certainly consider that a noticeable/measurable change. Could I feel it? Not really, the car felt just about the same as before, but with less camber up front.


Thanks to everyone who takes the time to design, build and sell e30 upgrades. :up:

My .02

[alpinaclone]

Dccolgrove, It's late, and I am tired, so I hope that I can convey my point without sounding like an "overenthusiastic newb". I have read through this thread, and many others like it concerning chassis stiffness, braces for the lack there of, and similar. I am no engineer, but as I have said, this is a pet interest of mine, and I am in a related career field (aircraft structural maintainence). I think that I have the sort of mind that allows me to '"see" the way that things work, and have consequently developed my own ideas and theories that I hope to eventually apply to my humble e30. As you have said, I'm sure that there is almost no money in developing e30 parts, regardless of that fact you still have done so, and as it sounds, have done a great deal more.

Finally to the point; Why not write a book, or some technical papers on your findings, theories and experiences. If there is no money to be made in the e30 parts game for you, then there is none in it for competitors either, even the ones armed with your knowledge. I trust that there are other e30 enthusiasts, or just gear heads in general, like myself whose conceptual and fabrication skills outweigh their wallets. To these people, good real world and first hand information is invaluable. I know I would definitely buy a copy, be it leather bound or xeroxed.

Sorry for the ramble, but it sounds like there is a lot that could be learned from you. Hope I don't sound like a "cheerleader". :)

[DSP74]

My experience with a tired old 200k e30 and a front strut brace. Firstly, the car has been wrecked, the drivers side strut tower was bent inwards around .5" more than the pass (which had also sagged inwards) I needed to find around .75" to fit the brace (Zen brace if that matters) so out with the tow straps, park the sucker between two trees and start pullin'. I dropped the strut out of the way and attached the hooks to my camber plates (vorshalg, hey look another plug for somebody) then got ready to pull on both sides until the brace would fit (ghetto? Sure, but I could not find a frame shop who would do this for under $500). The first thing I noticed is how easily and how much the towers moved. I could literally pull with my weight on the straps and see a good 1/4" of deflection on either side without trying too hard. I got kind of curious, so I put a couple bolts back in and reattached the struts, set the car down on the springs and then pulled just one side to induce some body roll which I tought looked like a 'normal' roll on the track. With 500lb/in springs and around 2" of roll, the pass side tower moved about .5" Hmm, maybe some of this extra camber I need to dial in is a result of strut tower deflection as well as body roll? Interesting.... Old setting -4.0 either side.

Got the bar installed, then hit the track and found I had much less heat in the outside of the tires, so started to dial back camber until there was some. Ended up with -3.0 and the tires seemed quite happy there. I certainly consider that a noticeable/measurable change. Could I feel it? Not really, the car felt just about the same as before, but with less camber up front.


Thanks to everyone who takes the time to design, build and sell e30 upgrades. :up:

My .02

I could be offbase here but I don't think a car that has been in an accident, and/or already fatigued or damaged as a good example.......Again I will be getting a strut brace. I'm not saying theye aren't effective. Just a damaged car isn't a good test subject.

[ethree]

Colegrove or anybody else, I'm wondering in your r&d for the front, or rear for that matter, strut braces if you encountered/observed anything in regards to different spacing between the front strut towers? I guess IE sells two different sized bars, but I thought that the difference between cars was negligible and the supposed two different chassis sizes basically rumor. Anyone shed any light?

[BMWLA]

Colegrove or anybody else, I'm wondering in your r&d for the front, or rear for that matter, strut braces if you encountered/observed anything in regards to different spacing between the front strut towers? I guess IE sells two different sized bars, but I thought that the difference between cars was negligible and the supposed two different chassis sizes basically rumor. Anyone shed any light?

the china sparco copy bar comes in two sizes? thats funny.

[AlarmedBread]

I could be offbase here but I don't think a car that has been in an accident, and/or already fatigued or damaged as a good example.......

True enough, but in a world where any chassis you can get your hands on is coming on 20 years.... towers can sag a bit just from sitting around. This is assuming there is no rust to contend with and you haven't already popped spot welds without knowing it. Just sharing my experiences, I will hopefully be comparing with a more intact chassis soon.

[jjmtools]

E30 front towers =WIDTH OF STUDS=

Colegrove or anybody else, I'm wondering in your r&d for the front, or rear for that matter, strut braces if you encountered/observed anything in regards to different spacing between the front strut towers? I guess IE sells two different sized bars, but I thought that the difference between cars was negligible and the supposed two different chassis sizes basically rumor. Anyone shed any light?

please allow me to shed light on e30 front tower width dimensions
ALWAYS - measure chassis before spending your money
hopefully I will not say anything that will cause forum members to have their feelings hurt and subsequently throw a wobbly or shed tears
these dimensions and install info can be found @MASONENGINEERING.NET
I use the front 2 tower studs for datum width measurments = center to center across the engine bay{ side to side} remove 8mm nuts use 13mm spanner most easy with 2 people the mean average dimension should be APP. 36.200 inches. some chassis I have seen = 36.5 36.1 36.250
there are a fewE30s of very late build that are 1 inch wider
Mr. Ireland uses the large hole for dimensions = vague = I use 2 front the fixing studs = exact
use anti-sieze and 12 to 15 ft.lbs torque on the low strength studs run it a few days and re-torque good luck / good hunting /no permanent damage
JM

[DSP74]

hopefully I will not say anything that will cause forum members to have their feelings hurt and subsequently throw a wobbly or shed tears
these dimensions and install info can be found @MASONENGINEERING.NET

JM

Your piss poor attitude just helped to lose a couple sales. And that was in 6 total forum posts. Stick around. Post some more. You just might put yourself out of business.

[iwillhunt]

please allow me to shed light on e30 front tower width dimensions
ALWAYS - measure chassis before spending your money
hopefully I will not say anything that will cause forum members to have their feelings hurt and subsequently throw a wobbly or shed tears

JM

Why would dimensions hurt someone's feelings?