e30 Braces

[Brian D]

No, I'm not. But I've seen on several other boards where people ask for his contact info and jjmtools@******* is given as his email address and ebay account. I think it's a reasonable assumption.

Just wondering. Seems a reasonable assumption, but it is easy to create a username.

No, but I only paid $50 so I didn't need any. Figured I'd take the risk.

Did you notice an improvement or better times on track? Do you still have it installed?

Anything else?

You're cute when you're pissy. :p

[DCColegrove]

Just an FYI thing...

Back around 1988.... (I would be more specific but that was 2 wives ago before I got sober)

We were having a problem with the GT2 and 4 M3s... They wouldn't make it more than 25 heats without one or the other strut towers blowing apart, so we welded bracing out to the inside of the inner fender support (much like the e30 ICs)...

The towers stopped popping but...The front half of the unibody started to develop cracks ahead of the A pillar...

We welded in bars triangulated off of the towers to a plate on the center of the firewall (not legal on the Group 2s at the time).... That stopped the cracks in front of the A pillar but... The front frame rails would spread apart and shear the cradle bolts clean off...

Some smart ass kid finally popped off with this silly fact... a box is stronger than a "U" so why don't we tie the towers together at the top...thereby making it A box instead of a "U".

"What...like the stupid Saki Sled Datsun 510 guys were doing... That doesn't work?"

But every one be damned...The shit quit breaking.

...Since then we have learned some stuff and subsequently address these old problems with better functioning and more elegant solutions... Call it nit picking but one RCH better is just that... 1 whole RCH Better.

Now 20 years latter the number one reason (aside from the strengthening aspect for chassis integrity longevity) I install them on street modded cars is that at high speed (especially on "rolling" pavement) there is less transient steering with up and down suspension deflections.

[robrez]

What did you do, start reading on the last page of this thread? Next time start from the beginning.
Even further, it was said as a joke, obviously nobody would entertain that offer.
So your entire paragraph of stupidity is void.

I'm not saying anything about the validity of the questions that were posed. I'm saying it makes me laugh to hear you cry about being treated "like shit" when you were the one acting like a prick in the first place. So Mason or whoever made a couple of curt or even snide comments, get over it, grow a pair. You were popping off too.

What really bothers me is that colegrove and mason are dudes living out the American dream. They paid their dues and now they're spinning their own tools and building stuff with their own hands, and doing it in their own shops, so they don't have to answer to some douche in a white shirt and tie who just cares about the bottom line. They aren't hucksters selling ebay crap like Turbonators and Tornado fuel savers. If the sellers of those products came on this forum and tried to hawk their junk, I'd expect them to get regulated on.

But when I see guys like mason and colegrove getting dissed, I just gotta say something about that. They have lifetimes of experience they'd share with you if you ever approached them in the right way. But you expect them to stand at attention and spout out quantifying data at your command? Gimme a break. I'd be surprised if I don't see your mug when I Wiki Little Emperor Syndrome.

The hardcore DIYers on this forum are gonna be the next colegroves and masons, putting in blood sweat and tears for the motorsports community and I doubt they'll be too concerned with one pissy punk who pops off to them either.

/rant

EDIT -- I'm here trying to learn something about E30s just like everyone else, not to get in pissing matches and tell others how to act. I just had to stand up for a good guy. Maybe the RNC has got me fired up.

[JGood]

Just wondering. Seems a reasonable assumption, but it is easy to create a username.

Did you notice an improvement or better times on track? Do you still have it installed?

You're cute when you're pissy. :p

No, I noticed nothing on the track, nor the street. I swapped it back and forth on a test and tune day hoping to feel a difference.

I have a combined ~150k miles on my e30's, so I am somewhat used to them and how they react. This car is set up for spece30, so it's not fully built with super stuff springs, solid joints and bushings everywhere... maybe then a difference could be felt?

I did put the bar on my street car that has a crack at the base of the shock tower where it connects to the rest of the body. I'm hoping it slows down the damage until I can fix it!

Thanks, but I'm not pissy, I'm just always cute ;)

[JGood]

I'm not saying anything about the validity of the questions that were posed. I'm saying it makes me laugh to hear you cry about being treated "like shit" when you were the one acting like a prick in the first place. So Mason or whoever made a couple of curt or even snide comments, get over it, grow a pair. You were popping off too.

What really bothers me is that colegrove and mason are dudes living out the American dream. They paid their dues and now they're spinning their own tools and building stuff with their own hands, and doing it in their own shops, so they don't have to answer to some douche in a white shirt and tie who just cares about the bottom line. They aren't hucksters selling ebay crap like Turbonators and Tornado fuel savers. If the sellers of those products came on this forum and tried to hawk their junk, I'd expect them to get regulated on.

But when I see guys like mason and colegrove getting dissed, I just gotta say something about that. They have lifetimes of experience they'd share with you if you ever approached them in the right way. But you expect them to stand at attention and spout out quantifying data at your command? Gimme a break. I'd be surprised if I don't see your mug when I Wiki Little Emperor Syndrome.

The hardcore DIYers on this forum are gonna be the next colegroves and masons, putting in blood sweat and tears for the motorsports community and I doubt they'll be too concerned with one pissy punk who pops off to them either.

/rant

EDIT -- I'm here trying to learn something about E30s just like everyone else, not to get in pissing matches and tell others how to act. I just had to stand up for a good guy. Maybe the RNC has got me fired up.

Laugh all you want, I'm doing the same thing. I'm not crying about being treated bad, I'm just saying if a company can't explain their product without treating customers like shit, I'm not going to buy it. I'm not losing any sleep over here...

I'm pretty sure I already acknowledged Colegroves contributions to this community, but I think that might have been on the first or second page, which you still haven't found ;)

I asked how a product helped and I was basically told that since they are the engineers, I just have to believe them as it's over my head. I have to trust that their product is the best, and even though it cost more then the competition, if I want something that works, I have to buy it. This is possibly (and likely) true, but if we all followed that theory, this would be a shitty country, no?

I understand they don't want to share data, because they are trying to protect their products from competitors. As such, they are acting as a business as opposed to a member helping out other members. No problem their, you have to make a living somehow. But then I'm going to treat them like a business. And that's to be expected, IMO.

Shall we continue this useless debate?

[JGood]

I believe the theory is that a stiffer tub or chassis allows the actual suspension to do it's work more effectively, with less unwanted flexing or motion added from the mounting points. Ever notice that new car designs always tout "xx% stiffer chassis" than the outgoing model?

I've heard this as well. This is the kind of stuff I was trying to pry out of the engineers... what exactly is happening while the car is at it's limits and how do the products effect what's happening?

So the shock tower being pulled, changing the camber curve, isn't really a major issue?

[JeffRR]

I've heard this as well. This is the kind of stuff I was trying to pry out of the engineers... what exactly is happening while the car is at it's limits and how do the products effect what's happening?

So the shock tower being pulled, changing the camber curve, isn't really a major issue?

From a transient standpoint: The strut bar is reducing (hopefully) the amount of compliance in the strut tower which as we know is the upper locating point for the strut. With that reduced compliance the time delay for the wheel load to be reacted in the chassis has been reduced. Hence reducing the response time between the steering input and the vehicle output.

The increased stiffness will have a marginal effect on the steady state performance unless the base structure is under designed, the change in camber between w/bar and w/o bar shouldn't be that large. Some where I think I saw the difference as 22mm of deflection w and w/o the bar (my numbers might be bad there, sorry if I'm remembering that wrong). If that actually is the case then you would see a benefit from greater camber control since 22mm if deflection on the top of the strut is huge and would lead me to believe that there might be something wrong with the base car.

[Brian D]

The increased stiffness will have a marginal effect on the steady state performance unless the base structure is under designed, the change in camber between w/bar and w/o bar shouldn't be that large. Some where I think I saw the difference as 22mm of deflection w and w/o the bar (my numbers might be bad there, sorry if I'm remembering that wrong). If that actually is the case then you would see a benefit from greater camber control since 22mm if deflection on the top of the strut is huge and would lead me to believe that there might be something wrong with the base car.

I think that was Dan earlier in this thread, and 22mm was recorded on a 7 post shaker. I agree, if there was that much movement under driving loads of any type, the cars all would have rattled themselves to death by now.

Here's some light reading, and the reason I'm kind of amused by all this anyways. Notice the date of the first post, and realize that we're still arguing over the effectiveness of these things.

http://corner-carvers.com/forums/showthread.php?t=448&highlight=strut+bar

If you want to skim go to about the middle of page 3. Some E30 content there.

Here's another, a little ways down the page. http://www.dpcars.net/mini2/mb.htm

My personal frame of reference is my friend, who was a chassis engineer/designer. He was impressed with the lower x brace, and if I was to add anything to my car that would be it.

[DCColegrove]

I think that was Dan earlier in this thread, and 22mm was recorded on a 7 post shaker. I agree, if there was that much movement under driving loads of any type, the cars all would have rattled themselves to death by now.

This was actually the case... No kidding 22mm fore and aft movement between the left and right strut tower (I'll admit that I was stunned).

The Chassis was a solid car 90 325i 2 dr with only 63k, the car had spent most of it's life in a garage and was a total due to Rodent damage (interior and wiring was eaten to shit and oh the smell....)

Now the lower X brace...

I have not tested this on the shaker However it was designed to address issues that were identified on the shaker and I have had it bolted to over 2 dozen cars street and track (both Wheel to wheel and around the cones)

One thing I can say as an absolute...The lower X is a must for the Cabriolets...Really tones down that shudder on acceleration... Every one notices that.

[nando]

I think that was Dan earlier in this thread, and 22mm was recorded on a 7 post shaker. I agree, if there was that much movement under driving loads of any type, the cars all would have rattled themselves to death by now.

I don't think chassis fatigue is such an easy thing to dismiss with the E30 - doesn't stu have well over 300k on his chassis, with *cracks* forming around his front struts/frame? he said he'd planned on junking the shell eventually - it's old, worn out and just done. how many of us are tracking/autoxing cars with well over 200k on them? How long do you expect a chassis to last under those conditions?

a full weld in cage is probably your best bet for real chassis rigidity - but for the rest of us, I'll take whatever reinforcements I can get, especially with the amount of money some of us have put into our cars.

[Brian D]

I don't think chassis fatigue is such an easy thing to dismiss with the E30...

My car, as best as I can figure, has somewhere north of 300k on it, and I've yet to find a crack <crosses fingers, knocks on wood, etc>. For 200k of that it was totally stock. I don't have any reinforcements added as of now, but my suspension is very mild. There's a lot of 200k+ Porsches running around also, and they aren't exactly models of structural rigidity.

Here's another thought. How do you know, when you add that neato bar/brace/whatever, that you aren't introducing another, unintended load path into the design, and possibly stressing the shell in ways it can't withstand? We're back to trusting those danged enjuneers!

A full cage would be best, yes, but that's a step very few can take on a dual purpose car.

[nando]

Here's another thought. How do you know, when you add that neato bar/brace/whatever, that you aren't introducing another, unintended load path into the design, and possibly stressing the shell in ways it can't withstand? We're back to trusting those danged enjuneers!
.

you are already doing that by modifying the suspension of the car and making it lower/stiffer. so that's a moot point.

[DCColegrove]

Here's another thought. How do you know, when you add that neato bar/brace/whatever, that you aren't introducing another, unintended load path into the design, and possibly stressing the shell in ways it can't withstand? We're back to trusting those danged enjuneers! .

That is probably the most important issue here (go back a few posts to when I discussed the G2 & 4 cars in the 80's).

When we were building cars dedicated to the track we realized chassis rigidity in a more holistic and integral way than bolt in equipment.

Most of the bolt in stuff available has very little into the design other than to mimic the real deal.

Remember that 22mm torsional motion measured?... That was with a bar installed, It controlled the original plane of motion it was intended to very well... But here was this little surprise.

There were a lot of other surprises... I'm have been considering doing more R&D to find solutions

However I don't think there is a market for it anymore... E30 R&D has been relegated to hobby status for me.

[JeffRR]

I think that was Dan earlier in this thread, and 22mm was recorded on a 7 post shaker. I agree, if there was that much movement under driving loads of any type, the cars all would have rattled themselves to death by now.

Here's some light reading, and the reason I'm kind of amused by all this anyways. Notice the date of the first post, and realize that we're still arguing over the effectiveness of these things.

http://corner-carvers.com/forums/showthread.php?t=448&highlight=strut+bar

If you want to skim go to about the middle of page 3. Some E30 content there.

Here's another, a little ways down the page. http://www.dpcars.net/mini2/mb.htm

My personal frame of reference is my friend, who was a chassis engineer/designer. He was impressed with the lower x brace, and if I was to add anything to my car that would be it.

There's some interesting reading in that corner-carvers link, I actually used to work with "freez'ntexan" at Roush. He worked on the final generation of Cobra's that Bondurant used, he ended up switching out the IRS's for F-body style torque-arm solid axles. He’s a pretty good engineer.

My comments are from my experience with chassis stiffening bolt-ons. At one point I designed and tested a strut tower brace for a large fwd sedan. I preformed a subjective ride/handling evaluation as well as measuring load in the bar (via strain gauge) over a specific durability cycle. If I remember correctly I saw somewhere between 60~90lb max load in the bar over the durability cycle which is primarily ride events. Subjectively it reduced the steering delay, I think I gave it 1 point on a 10 point scale. It was also beneficial reducing shake in the body.

I’ve had similar results with other underbody bracing that ties the subframe to the uni-body, reduced delays and shake.

[DCColegrove]

On another note

Some of the things that have transpired recently warrants saying this. I was going to start a new thread with this but I think it will do to post this here.


This is the lower X brace everyone has been hooting and hollering about for one reason or another.



This is the first prototype shown bolted to my DD.









Aside from building the first mock up for the tooling I did all of the testing that was done on this.


Since the final product was built I have fit it to no less than 40 cars, identified and solved many fitment issues (including engine swaps and other common modifications) and collected a lot of information about it's performance in operation... And yes, I have uncovered some flaws.

...And I'm keeping that information to myself...Why shouldn't I.

There are many improvements that could be made to the E30 Chassis, some that were known at the time it was manufactured and some that were not discovered until recently. But the e30 is obsolete as far as the "marketing departments" are concerned and not worth spending money on.

I'm more than happy to help out the guys that need to get pointed in the right direction with their own cars service and repair issues, and to offer my professional opinion on available products (not that anyone would listen)...

however...

I'm done giving away valuable R&D, Promotion and or Marketing for cheap or for free, I can't afford to (I couldn't even afford to pay for an X brace for my own car).

At some point I may have the infrastructure in place in order to benefit ( meaning: feed, house and clothe my kids) from developing e30 stuff for the market, but right now it's just not happening.