beware of DMS Motorsports and blueapplesoda

[mod_junkie]

Expect failure? Really? So what's the alternative...use a brand new complete head? a brand new bottom end? The rockers didn't break from fatigue, they broke because of a timing issue. With all due respect, the parts may be used but then the engine builder should have sent the head/block to the machine shop to be sure they are suitable for use before the builder does anything with them. Once he builds the engine, it's pretty much his baby. He's not installing a complete used engine. He's now installing a DMS 2.7 stroker (he is a performance shop, no?) which the customer has paid $3K for. I can see if a single rocker broke, etc failure caused by fatigue or something fluke but a failure like this has nothing to do with new/used parts. Anyone can throw parts together, customers are paying for your expertise/experience.

this.

[homegrone30]

I warrenty my work out only if I get the parts and if the parts are NEW.

Einstein you could at least quote the complete sentence.

Expect failure? Really? So what's the alternative...use a brand new complete head? a brand new bottom end?

Yes if you want to know the exact quality of the parts you are using you must buy new. Now obviously a new head and block is out of the question for most of us.

The rockers didn't break from fatigue, they broke because of a timing issue.

Now as far as the rocker arms breaking you your most likely right if all six broke its probably due to improper valve clearance. Or the obvious timing belt failure. Although normally that means your valves go through your pistons because the cam is not moving at that point and you crank/pistons are. Now anyone who knows m20's know rocker arms are a weak point in the motor. Did you have new upgraded rocker arms installed on your performance motor?

With all due respect, the parts may be used but then the engine builder should have sent the head/block to the machine shop to be sure they are suitable for use before the builder does anything with them.

The machine shop only does what you tell/pay them to do. And if he felt the parts were worthy to send to the machine shop I'm sure he looked them over himself. And I'm 99.999% sure he didn't put the motor together before at least getting the head decked. Also the machine shop isn't going to be able to do anything about bad rockers arms except tell you to get new ones.

Once he builds the engine, it's pretty much his baby. He's not installing a complete used engine. He's now installing a DMS 2.7 stroker (he is a performance shop, no?) which the customer has paid $3K for. I can see if a single rocker broke, etc failure caused by fatigue or something fluke but a failure like this has nothing to do with new/used parts. Anyone can throw parts together, customers are paying for your expertise/experience.

Yes you are correct. But you have to realize these things happen with custom work and from what I read he has done alot to try and make good on his end. It dosnt matter if you pay $3000 or $30,000 for a custom motor, failure can happen and it does happen all the time.

Again Im not saying either party in this situation is right or wrong. I'm merely coming to his defense because I know what its like to have problems with custom jobs and I also know what its like to have someone pissed off at you who dosnt see the complete picture. Maybe he did fuck something up. Who am I to say? At the same time you are not a mechanic right? How do you know what actually caused the failure? You say another mechanic claims the timing belt was not properly tightened. Ive built 5 m20's (which are all still on the road) is there some special tightening procedure I don't know about? They seem pretty straight forward to me.

[reelizmpro]

Obviously, new head/block are cost prohibitive and just plain unnecessary when rebuilding an engine provided they are within spec and not cracked/damaged but this is beside the point. The point is it just doesn't matter, this failure was caused by a timing issue. The customer said he took it to another mechanic who verified it. Like you said, M20 is pretty straightforward...why the catastrophic failure 3K miles later? What seems mostly likely is something wasn't torqued to spec and timing changed drastically as a result. We can all agree something bad happened...I just think you can't blame the customer for it. Who does that leave?

I'm not a mechanic by trade, chose a different route but I grew up in a BMW shop as a teen and I'm 36 now. I often did work on E30's in the shop because I knew them very well. I know several owners of different BMW shops in SoCal so you can say I am very much in the know with what goes on. I have also seen this shop eat costs, sometimes working for free because they value repeat customers. I have seen a brand new (even new parts fail) S14 crank...break in half on a customer car after he spent 10-15k+ on the rebuild. Customer bought another new one (voluntarily) and the shop ate the costs of swapping it out. This customer just spent good money with you. Your labor is the least you could do to make it right, especially if it looks like mechanic's negligence. Sometimes you have to look at the bigger picture. When I get screwed by businesses, not only do I never go there again but I make sure to let everyone else know not to go there either.

[e30trooper]

Its easy and hard to mess up on the m20's timing. Truthfully I re-used a old timing belt for my I head conversion. Its been over a year plus one track day and daily redlining. Its hard to mess this up unless you half ass a build. Theres a risk using used parts. But a fully rebuilt engine and 3k shouldnt be half assed.

[IRON-E]

I agree with you 100% Barry, luckily I've only paid friends to take care of the timing belt tensioning. Have never failed and, I'm glad I didn't get bent forward to the tune of $3k, for a "custom timing belt job".

[e30trooper]

Shop says they lost money... You make money off parts and labor shouldnt be such a big deal when a bill was that amount.

[blueapplesoda]

This is going to be a really long post. Read it through and understand it. I will not be commenting further on this thread.

I'm fully aware of how to see the bigger picture. Customers want work done. I do it. My fault it screws up? I'll do it again. I do the labor. I pay for parts. I ask politely if they can help to pay for parts, but I pay for them up front. Agreements get made, and I will do things to secure my interests because I'm trying to run a business. That means looking at short game and long game the same. I want customers to come back, but some of them just pull me along for a ride when the opportunity presents itself, and I don't have it in me to put up chasing people.

I didn't just slap this shit together; I put my soul into it. That's why it was $3k. ETA to Motronic 1.3, 2.7i seta swap. I threw on 19lb Bosch D3 injectors with a new 2.5 (yes, 2.5) BAR Bosch FPR, and worked the AFM watching AFRs. Every part looked new as it went in. No paper gaskets. No cork gaskets. Either silicone bonding gasket (and not cheap rtv crap), or metal. The crankshaft, rods and pistons were all sent to be lightened and balanced. The rockers were inspected and reconditioned by my machine shop, and reinspected by me, and all the eccentrics replaced. The valves and guides were replaced with good reground BMW valves and new guides. Standard 3 angle performance valve job, at a minimum. I mean, it was gorgeous. I still remember how clean it was. You could eat off that motor. New water pump, new timing belt tensioner, new timing belt (second), and reconditioned pulleys. Decked head, decked block, about 2-3 thou off each. Goetze HG, metric 12.9 bolts. All new wear items in the bottom end, the list is endless. It was ready for boost. When the motor was out I even replaced the guibo, CSB, and motor & trans mounts, as part of the swap. Didn't want the car coming back because some dumb little rubber bushing failed. Late model water tank retrofit. The Intake mani and valve cover were texture coated, machined down, and baked. All the nuts replaced with new US made flanged high temp nylock nuts. New silicone vacuum lines, new BMW 8mm fuel hose, new stainless hose clamps. The moment I started it, it ran beautifully. I did one test drive up and down the street to break in the second set of rings, and it was torquey. I was proud. With Josh standing there, I didn't have time to further work on the car, so I told him to take it and bring it back so I could take a look at it when it was best at his convenience. This is not your run of the mill shop job. But I digress.


Here is the break down of our communications. I'd rather post this then to disclose the actual screenshots, but I am prepared to show those IFF absolutely necessary.

Pretext 9/3/12 or 9/4/12 early - (when he picked up the car, we talked and he agreed to bring it by in the next week or two)
9/4/12 - He texts me, and I tell him again to bring the car back , he agrees. It seemed legit.
- 5 months later, haven't talked to him since that day
2/14/13 - I get a text from Josh saying he had the valves adjusted, and it obviously wasn't by me. After that, it broke all the rockers, and he asked what could cause this.
My answer was USER ERROR.

Not only did he not return to me on my specific instructions (I assume to avoid the payment owed) but he takes it to someone else without first contacting me, to have them do the work I already agreed to do. That last act in itself, will void any warranty, from anybody sane, and remove themselves from any association with whatever work they previously did. I only warranty work that is done specifically at my shop, or at another shop with my stated permission; one that I trust, Chris Castro@his own, Jerick@JMP are my local go to's for e30/BMW work. Marc@Bavarian is also a very good shop, albeit more on the expensive side.

This is not a problem for Josh's warranty, because we had previously agreed to void the warranty due to financial constraints on both ends. However bitter the act of voiding the warranty, at face value, the warranty was agreed to be void by both parties. Done and Done.

Let me make this clear. I AM NOT A MECHANIC. I take my time making sure everything is perfect, or damn near close. This is why I am in R&D. I don't "crank out" things. I may do odd jobs here and there, when opportunity presents, but I mainly do EMS systems, and build engines. Usually with all (or most) new parts because I am a nut for problems down the line. New parts almost always solve any part related problems. The option was presented to Josh at the beginning, to use new parts, and spend a little more, but I worked with his budget. Everyone else wanted more money for the same level of job, and I happened to have a 2.7 seta sitting on a pallet. Which is rare in my case. It seemed like a good combination of events.

I'm not a money monger, and I view long term relationships with customers as more important and something I try to attain, but you have to understand: It's a two-way street. He threatens me with slander and libel and other "legal" actions cause I won't do something he wants, which is not under agreement, but could be construed in such a way (basically black mail) to make it seem I am liable if "certain" problems arise, then you know you are getting strung along for a ride. Good customers don't leverage to that extent. It's just dirty tactics.

I did my part, as expected, and delivered. I've always been a nice guy, and I've been taken for rides by one too many "friends" and one too many "customers", and because of this, I've learnt how to deal with them. Extremely well. You get robbed once or twice, you buy a gun. At least you have a chance now. The police aren't going to do shit except clean up your dead ass and send it to the coroner. Lesson learnt. I wasn't aware of any issues until this thread reared its ugly ass head; No attempts at contact made.

I don't wish anything more. I don't hate. I am a taoist. But when push comes to shove, I will stand my ground. I am American.

On my Honor & Pride,

Derek Wang
DedericMS

[mikeedler]

adjusting some valves incorrectly isn't going to over tighten a timing belt any way you look at it.

I see both sides, if what you are saying is true, then I think you are right even though it was most def. your fault for the failure of the motor.

[Exodus_2pt0]

adjusting some valves incorrectly isn't going to over tighten a timing belt any way you look at it

But it will break rockers... And void a warranty.

[homegrone30]

But it will break rockers... And void a warranty.

This...

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[reelizmpro]

adjusting some valves incorrectly isn't going to over tighten a timing belt any way you look at it.

I see both sides, if what you are saying is true, then I think you are right even though it was most def. your fault for the failure of the motor.

Someone would have to be a complete idiot and even then it would still be tough to mess up an M20 valve adjustment to the point it breaks rockers. I think we all know this but it seems you are looking an "out"...Derek.

Given that this isn't the first time I've heard people complaining about your business, in the short time you've been in business...it raises a red flag. I'm just sayin...

[JMPAuto]

This is a sad story for both parties. I can't stand just reading without saying something. My shop was somehow part of the whole story. Derek actually built the third motor at my shop. He didn't have the space to work on and Josh wants his car done so I lend Derek one of my bay including a lift for sometime to finish up the engine. I did this for no exchange because Derek is a good friend and Josh is a good guy, we just want them to be both happy. As a shop owner, it's hard to see somebody taking their time and effort to destroy somebody because of their bad experience with them. But that's the reality of a shop and customer relationship, we just can't please everybody. I just don't see why people would try to destroy somebody on public for $3000. Our hard earned reputation is worth more than $3000 or even $10k.

As far as I know, the motor was returned because of a piston slap on the 6th cylinder that Josh can't stand. I've seen this before, mostly because of reusing an old piston and an old block. M20 is not a very complicated engine to build. I've supplied parts to my customers that wanted to build their own M20 for the first time. Some made success and some failed. I watched Derek build the 3rd motor (I think it's the 3rd) at my shop, giving him a helping hand and lending him quality tools along the process. He did everything the way it should be done and can't see anything that would cause engine failure.

As a shop owner, I would instantly void warranty if engine was touched by somebody else while under warranty. It's ok to get it checked out and ask for opinions but getting it worked on for something related to my build is a no no. I've seen a lot of shops messing around with customer's car to make the previous mechanic look bad and steal customer. That's a reality we can't avoid, part of the business so no hard feelings. As a customer, if you already invested on somebody to work on your car, you just have to stick with them until you get your issues resolved. That's the only way to get justice for your money. Shop may not like it but they have to do it. You always have to consider the part failing, we can do things perfectly but if the part fails then we still fix it no matter what. But being accused of doing things the wrong way is not acceptable, especially if customer decided to reuse old parts. If you can't trust anybody then do it yourself.

In the end, money is money. It's hard to earn but can be earned if we want to. Reputation is the hardest one to earn and for most situation, a one time deal. I can't blame both parties for doing what they had to do. Especially if we didn't see the whole story unfold. Taking side is like politics, believing in somebody we don't even know. Not the ideal way but the only way for most people. Sometimes it's better to just mind our own business and stay quite if we have nothing better to say. I just wish both parties good luck. Our love for owning e30s and building e30s doesn't end here. We all have our share of bad experiences. The only difference is the way we handle them.

Have a good Sunday!

[einstein57]

Einstein you could at least quote the complete sentence.

I did not think you meant a new engine block. That is kind of outrageous in order to warranty your work. Magnaflux tested components provided by the builder should be enough to stand behind their work. All the shops i know of offer a 1 year warranty if they provide all the components on a thorough rebuild. At least on a basic motor. I would not expect a warranty on a motor with a turbo on it though. That just opens up a jumbo can of user error.

[homegrone30]

A whole new block would definetly be out of the question yes for the average e30 owner yes you are right. But if your building a "performance" motor most likely its a good idea to replace/upgrade components that wear/break after abuse or over time. I'm not saying you have to use brand new parts to make a good motor. I'm saying you have to use brand new parts if you expect perfection. What if that head was on a motor that overheated on a previous owner or ran on low or no oil? There's no way to determine the exact lifespan of a 20+ year old used part. All I'm trying to say is there is no guarentee how long a "performance" motor will last even more so if it has been built with used parts.


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[einstein57]

Not saying perfect. Hell even brand new crate engines can crap out in less then 10k miles. I would not consider a stock SETA bottom end with a stock i head a performance motor. Also i'm not saying Derrick owes the guy an engine either. I would have to look at the damage first hand to see what actually caused the damage. Hell i've destroyed all the valves on a brand new motor myself. Probably from driving like a 19 year old D-Bag

Looked like a pretty well cared for build