beware of DMS Motorsports and blueapplesoda

[Be30riginal]

"Marc@Bavarian is also a very good shop, albeit more on the expensive side."

valve adjustment was done by a very very reputable shop....Bavarian Workshop in West Hills....

spoke to Marc about the broken rocker arms and he said the same thing...the valve adjustment in no way could have cause such a catasrophic failure..i had to do with the timing belt...

[Be30riginal]

[Exodus_2pt0]

Looks like the belt is intact in that photo....

You sure you didn't pull a 3rd to 2nd shift? If the belt is on, I fail to see how tension could break rockers.

[einstein57]

I've known Mark for damn near 25 year and he definitely knows his way around a BMW. Did he diagnose what caused the damage as well?

[Be30riginal]

Looks like the belt is intact in that photo....

You sure you didn't pull a 3rd to 2nd shift? If the belt is on, I fail to see how tension could break rockers.

Car was an Automatic

[e30polak]

This is a sad story for both parties. I can't stand just reading without saying something. My shop was somehow part of the whole story. Derek actually built the third motor at my shop. He didn't have the space to work on and Josh wants his car done so I lend Derek one of my bay including a lift for sometime to finish up the engine. I did this for no exchange because Derek is a good friend and Josh is a good guy, we just want them to be both happy. As a shop owner, it's hard to see somebody taking their time and effort to destroy somebody because of their bad experience with them. But that's the reality of a shop and customer relationship, we just can't please everybody. I just don't see why people would try to destroy somebody on public for $3000. Our hard earned reputation is worth more than $3000 or even $10k.

As far as I know, the motor was returned because of a piston slap on the 6th cylinder that Josh can't stand. I've seen this before, mostly because of reusing an old piston and an old block. M20 is not a very complicated engine to build. I've supplied parts to my customers that wanted to build their own M20 for the first time. Some made success and some failed. I watched Derek build the 3rd motor (I think it's the 3rd) at my shop, giving him a helping hand and lending him quality tools along the process. He did everything the way it should be done and can't see anything that would cause engine failure.

As a shop owner, I would instantly void warranty if engine was touched by somebody else while under warranty. It's ok to get it checked out and ask for opinions but getting it worked on for something related to my build is a no no. I've seen a lot of shops messing around with customer's car to make the previous mechanic look bad and steal customer. That's a reality we can't avoid, part of the business so no hard feelings. As a customer, if you already invested on somebody to work on your car, you just have to stick with them until you get your issues resolved. That's the only way to get justice for your money. Shop may not like it but they have to do it. You always have to consider the part failing, we can do things perfectly but if the part fails then we still fix it no matter what. But being accused of doing things the wrong way is not acceptable, especially if customer decided to reuse old parts. If you can't trust anybody then do it yourself.

In the end, money is money. It's hard to earn but can be earned if we want to. Reputation is the hardest one to earn and for most situation, a one time deal. I can't blame both parties for doing what they had to do. Especially if we didn't see the whole story unfold. Taking side is like politics, believing in somebody we don't even know. Not the ideal way but the only way for most people. Sometimes it's better to just mind our own business and stay quite if we have nothing better to say. I just wish both parties good luck. Our love for owning e30s and building e30s doesn't end here. We all have our share of bad experiences. The only difference is the way we handle them.

Have a good Sunday!

Very well put Jerick, and I 100% agree with your post. If a new part fails after being worked on by our shop, we will warranty it as long as the failure wasn't caused by user error (whether it be from driving or tinkering). Also if we provide the parts, and build a motor for a customer, we will warranty the motor, including the parts we provided. The biggest concern is, if there is a failure with a part that was subcontracted through another vendor, like a machine shop, which we is also warrantied through that vendor, then we need to inspect the car, with the failure prior to anyone else attempting to fix the car. We don't pay for someone else to do the work, that simply voids our portion of the warranty. If the customer prefers to takes the car somewhere else, without notifying us, then they've breached the inherent contract and we're no longer liable for that portion of the work completed or anything that occurs with that portion of the work after the fact.

Bottom line is, if a shop offers a warranty with their work, it's on the customer to follow through with the shop if anything occurs. This is the same with most warranties. For example if you buy a camera from Canon, a part fails and you send it to an independent repair shop to be fixed, unless it states otherwise in the contract, you've essentially voided your camera's warranty.

I hope this gets resolved civilly, as Derek is a great guy that I've known for years. If it's his fault, then I believe he will do what's right. It is a bit concerning that there was more then one failure/problem in this whole ordeal. Always work with the vendor if possible to resolve the issue, if they refuse to work with the customer, then you can seek other outlets to fix the problem.

[Cabriolet]

spoke to Marc about the broken rocker arms and he said the same thing...the valve adjustment in no way could have cause such a catasrophic failure..i had to do with the timing belt...

I's sorry, but this is just not true. if the rockers were not tightened and loosened with driving after the adjustment they can and i have seen them crack from this and likewise if they were too tight they can crack from hitting the piston.

if it had been the timing belt, they would have popped within the first pull on the engine.

plain and simple you are blaming the wrong guy for this failure.

[reelizmpro]

So in other words Marc Norris from Bavarian is a complete idiot who cannot do a simple M20 valve adjustment? ...so he is to blame? He was probably working on these cars when most of you were in diapers lol. Are you familiar with his shop? It was already determined that something was wrong and timing was altered. Was that caused by the valve adjustment? I thought I read that was the whole reason for taking it another shop in the first place...something was wrong before the failure.

I will agree, taking the car to another shop may legally let DMS off the hook and void the warranty. He should have given him the chance to fix it...etc. but to say he's blaming the wrong guy is pretty far fetched. Yeah, very unfortunate...for the customer.

[homegrone30]

[B][I]

valve adjustment was done by a very very reputable shop....Bavarian Workshop in West Hills....

Reputable or not you really just took all liability from DMS with that last sentence.



Sent from my SPH-L710 using Tapatalk 2

[Blackout]

Reputable or not you really just took all liability from DMS with that last sentence.



Sent from my SPH-L710 using Tapatalk 2

Mystery Solved.

[deutschman]

There are so many places this engine build could have gone wrong as so many people touched the engine, and used parts were used. No matter if Blueapplesoda supplied the parts or not, it sounds like the OP did not have the money to buy all new engine internals, and there for used parts were found, check, rechecked, and installed.
This thread is weird and a bit childish. OP should have just stated his case simply with out making it a personal attack.
A: Whats wrong with the car
B: Was the experience with said shop bad/good
C: Would you go back yes/no
That is all that is really needed.

Sucks that your build did not go as planned. I think it is time to move on though buddy. Fall off your horse get back on and keep riding.

[Ryann]

Noticed blueapplesoda didn't comment on the transmission debacle.. Seems like he may be in over his head a bit.

I've agreed to build a few engines for people on the side, but never for those who can't afford to do it right. Customers looking to do things on the cheap also tend to be the ones that wind up being a pain in the ass.

1. OP chose to skimp on parts for the build and chose a lesser experienced/cheaper builder.

2. Shop agreed to tackling a project smothered in warning signs.

3. Shit blew up.

4. Both parties got fucked.

5. Timing belts suck.

[mkcman17]

One of the aspects that bothers me is with the first failure over a year ago. I remember josh saying that derrick couldn't get to his car until after bimmerfest because he had too many other cars that needed to be finished before then. Loose strings left undone become tangled.

[ForcedFirebird]

I's sorry, but this is just not true. if the rockers were not tightened and loosened with driving after the adjustment they can and i have seen them crack from this and likewise if they were too tight they can crack from hitting the piston.

if it had been the timing belt, they would have popped within the first pull on the engine.

plain and simple you are blaming the wrong guy for this failure.

There is 1.78mm clearance in a stock engine - the valve adjustment is within .010" (or .25mm). For the valve to touch the pistons, you would have to press the valve down .070" while tightening the eccentric. If the lash was set too loose, there would be a loud clacking from under the hood - noticeable to even an untrained ear, and the valve would be even further away from the piston while in operation.

I have seen several broken timing belts come in the shop. The exhaust valves are always bent, only have seen one broken rocker as a result.

Another job that came in the shop was a tensioner that worked loose, stripped several cogs off the timing belt and allowed the cam to jump timing - taking out all the exhaust valves and breaking the boss on the head above the offending cylinder (no broken rockers).

In our case, if there is a failure, we diagnose and dissect the engine to find the issue. If the failure was to no fault of ours, the customer must pay for the diagnosis and repairs, if it is our fault, it is repaired at our expense.

[Cabriolet]

There is 1.78mm clearance in a stock engine - the valve adjustment is within .010" (or .25mm). For the valve to touch the pistons, you would have to press the valve down .070" while tightening the eccentric. If the lash was set too loose, there would be a loud clacking from under the hood - noticeable to even an untrained ear, and the valve would be even further away from the piston while in operation.

I have seen several broken timing belts come in the shop. The exhaust valves are always bent, only have seen one broken rocker as a result.

Another job that came in the shop was a tensioner that worked loose, stripped several cogs off the timing belt and allowed the cam to jump timing - taking out all the exhaust valves and breaking the boss on the head above the offending cylinder (no broken rockers).

John, you know I trust your knowledge and skill immensely. Here is the info from which I am drawing from.
I have seen the eccentric loosen over a short time from the nut not being tightened all the way. At this point the one that came loose had so much lash that it fractured the head off of the rocker, when the owner pushed the engine.

Second case. Is my dad's mtech2. The tensioner sheared and that caused 2 intake rocker arms to break. Oddly enough did not bend the valves; however the head was thrown out due to not wanting to risk it nor wanting to repair it.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/5957009...in/photostream

Also the engine was not a stock b25 with the 1.78mm. There were custom pistons which could mean less clearance and if there was valve float from old springs, a number of things could have gone wrong. It also seems really unlikely that after months have passed after the completion, that engine builder would be the one at fault. I would have expected to see failure much sooner.

*I see metric blues were used, this makes no sense to me.* - side note