OBD1 Swaps Still... Why!?

[hoveringuy]

Very true.
Megasquirt 2 has a CPU speed of 24mhz
MS41.1 has CPU speed of 20mhz

Wow, and everyone was suprised that the Curiosity Rover was running on Mars at a poky 200Mhz...

[cormier]

I went obd1 because of the huge amount of documentation also -- and I was starting from a bare long block -- figured why not if I was going to do the manifold anyways and needed all the sensors etc in either case

Having done it and looked into it some more, I could have easily stayed obd2 and been better off, but at the time it was easier just to switch.

[nando]

Very true.
Megasquirt 2 has a CPU speed of 24mhz
MS41.1 has CPU speed of 20mhz
MS43 has CPU speed of 25mhz

Megasquirt-III uses a 16bit MC9S12XEP100 processor running at 50 MHz

mhz really has nothing at all to do with it, but I guess it helps the point.

The CPU or the programming? I would argue that the programming is better because the focus is not the EPA and has been continuously developed over the past decade. The MC9 runs at 50 MHz... not a real rocketship!

Point is that the increased power of the newer ECUs is devoted to emissions. Misfire detection, as an example, doesn't increase performance, it decreases hydrocarbon emissions by shutting down a non-firing cylinder.

MS3 is also dual core, though. it can run a 12 cylinder engine in full sequential/COP with individual spark and fuel trims. add something like an IO extender and you can run individual EGTs and widebands per cylinder. MS41/MS43 can't even come close to that.

But on your point, even MSS54, which has two CPUs, one of them is basically dedicated to emissions. ant it only runs at about 22mhz.

[5Toes]

What does MS43 stand for?

[328ijunkie]

If you're so passionate about getting people do to OBD2 swaps then write a complete comprehensive DIY guide on how to do it. There's a big lack of info out there, and what little info there is, is scattered about in random build threads and threads in this forum which make it impossible to search for.
If you want people to do OBD2 swaps then do that and and make it a sticky, not make rant threads like this. There's still many missing pieces, the big things well known, like just send the ecu to get flashed by someone like you, but what's missing is the little intricacies of it that will inevitably come up during the swap that you didn't think of.

In the works ;)

Besides having the less nice aspects flashed out of the DME (EWS, secondary air pump, etc.) And a temp sensor I don't know what else is different than the average 24v swap. The reason OBD1 backdated on newer motors was popular before was that flash tuning wasn't as accessable. Now that isn't the case but people still downgrade their engines because that's what has always been done.

This is very true on may aspects as many moons ago, i converted my E36 to OBD1 just so i could easily get a chip tune because at that point Active was one of the few that could do OBD2 and they couldnt do it well at that point.

328junkie did it... third one I believe. Wasn't a E36 particularly but a S50 to OBD2.

I went with OBD1 on my M52 swap as I was missing all the OBD2 sensors and ECU already, so it was easier for me to go OBD1, and cheaper as my friend is a tuner and he made me a custom tune, going on the dyno eventually with him to fine tune it. A lot easier then flashing IMO.

Understandable

Gotcha. Slightly off topic, but some observations of old school vs. new school:

A lot of race engine builders (american motors) near me still swear by points for ignition systems. Old school guys, but they know the new technology and still choose points.

Many motocycle stunt riders (again, that I am familar with) still like carbs over fuel injection. Not sure why, but they seem to dial in the cards just right for hanging 12' wheelies for long periods of time.

Ive also seen this as well but i wonder if this is because its what they know front to back and what theyre good at vs what may be best. Ive seen people that can fine tune a carb engine by hand to run perfect and get the most power possible although the same could be done with FI.

Missing the fact that member The Volta bought a OBD2 tune for a E30 swap from you, back in march, the flash turned out to be bad, then he sent it back directly to technica and hasn't seen it sense. Now he is stuck without his DME and the money he payed you for the flash.

Also member mr.swiss had problems with his technica DME read it in this post:

http://www.r3vlimited.com/board/show...6&postcount=56

Again as ive said in another thread, im currently working with The Volta to get his ECU back. The Technica boys are slammed over there doing all sorts of new and exciting stuff (https://sphotos-a.xx.fbcdn.net/hphot...66089230_n.jpg)
that needs more of their time than my old E30 swap ECUs (not saying this excuses the issue at hand) but it is what it is. Im not sure where you and I got off on the wrong foot other than blind competition but please email me if you have some issues with my shop vs. thread dumping every chance you get. Thanks.

None of this is an issue if you do things right.

lol

Agreed. The beauty of the OBD1 conversion used to be that I could strip an OBD2 engine to a long block, bolt on all of the OBD1 parts, wire it up, and have it running in a days time. Granted I've been out of the loop for some time now..

Planning is everything lol. Ive done OBD2 swaps from running M20/M42 car to running OBD2 motor in a matter of days.

I'd go with lack of information. I went to obdi because i read that's THE thing to do. Haha. I figure this thread came up because of my no start thread. I had no problems with actual obdi engine components or sensors. The computer chip was backwards from the last guy. So really, this was probably easier. And i also had a budget to follow. I feel like sending my ecu to be flashed would probably destroy my budget and be out of my time frame.

All that said, I still have my obdii harness, convince me to put it back in! ;)

Again i feel like a flash vs. a chip to properly run your motor on a red/silver 413 made for an M50 is only a marginal bump in price.

I agree man. Had I not already started along this path years ago, OBDII is the way to go.

The amount of technology available to OBDII cars now is amazing. Kiwi, bluetooth, change tunes in 2 minutes, the list of advantages goes on...

:D

That is what is funny. We have 328junkie commenting on how a lot of swaps have issues starting with OBD1 conversion. Well in the big picture, who makes a thread when it does start? No one. We only make threads when we need help with no starts. And seeing as how 98% of people are OBD1, the 2% of OBD2 no start threads are swept under the buss.

Just a thought.

Yes obviously im basing that statement off blind r3v statistics which can be all over the place but i am taking into account the number of people I indirectly get up and going on OBD2.

The fun thing for me is that I have two almost identical M54 engines: one in my e39 530i and one in my e30.

The one in my e30 runs on Megasquirt which is an OBD Zero computer, it starts reliably, idles nicely, runs like a raped-ape and is a lot of fun to drive. It probably has the computing power of a Casio watch.

The one in my e39 runs fine, too. It starts in the morning and is predictable, slow and boring. It reaches operating temps in 1/10 the time of my e30. I could freshen my house with the exhaust.

I don't really have any issues with the newer ECU's, but I've grown to believe that the massive increases in computing power have little to do with true performance and everythig to do with squeezing every last gram of CO, NOx and HC out of the exhaust.

When our newest ECU's are truly DIY tuneable like some of the Japanese cars I'll be more onboard with it, but so far it's too much "I have a secret" by a select group of tuners.

Although this is VERY true as alot of the bump in ECU tech/power is for emissions/MPGs/etc, there are also many other advantages to it like more precise fine tuning/adaptation and diagnostics, much of whats listed below. lol

Improved features of MS41.1/MS41.2 when compared to M3.3.1 bosch

1: improved knock detection, ms41 is able to hear which cylinder is knocking and retard the timing only on that cylinder resulting in better performance even with low grade fuel. M3.3.1 system will retard the timing in all 3 cylinders resulting in greater loss of power.

2: improved ignition timing, because crank trigger wheel is located inside the engine bolted directly on to the crank, this gives it more precise timing and it is required for proper misfire detection. MS41 is able to detect what cylinder is misfiring and turn off the injector on that cylinder to prevent catalytic converter damage. M3.3.1 system reads of the harmonic balancer wheel that constantly vibrates resulting in much less accuracy and misfire detection.

3: improved fuel control, MS41 controls the fuel injection by bank of 3 cylinders meaning if one cylinder is running leaner or richer, ms41 will adjust air fuel ratio on that bank only 1-3 or 4-6 instead of adjusting for the whole 6 as you have it in m3.3.1. this is the reason why ms41 has two 02 sensors in the exhaust manifolds

4: improved fuel delivery system, running loss valve reduces the fuel vapor that builds inside the fuel rail, resulting in better more constant fuel delivery and better hot starting.

There are also improvements on the engine 93-95 vs 96-99, like: increased displacement, lighter valve spring keepers, lighter lifters, counter balanced camshafts, tighter vanos control, improved chain tensioner, improved PCV oil separating system, lighter exhaust malifolds, one less belt roller, bigger injectors

The CPU or the programming? I would argue that the programming is better because the focus is not the EPA and has been continuously developed over the past decade. The MC9 runs at 50 MHz... not a real rocketship!

Point is that the increased power of the newer ECUs is devoted to emissions. Misfire detection, as an example, doesn't increase performance, it decreases hydrocarbon emissions by shutting down a non-firing cylinder.

mhz really has nothing at all to do with it, but I guess it helps the point.
MS3 is also dual core, though. it can run a 12 cylinder engine in full sequential/COP with individual spark and fuel trims. add something like an IO extender and you can run individual EGTs and widebands per cylinder. MS41/MS43 can't even come close to that.

But on your point, even MSS54, which has two CPUs, one of them is basically dedicated to emissions. ant it only runs at about 22mhz.

I have never personally dealt with MS3. Ive worked with MS1 a few times and MS2 once, and those left alot to be desired. I have read about the vast improvements in the MS3 but have not dealt with or heard about it much, good or bad as much as ide like to hate on it and say factory ECUs are better ;)
This may have been the case with the MS1 and even MS2 but the 3 i cant personally say either way on. It may even be better for what we swap guys need it for ?! Haha

What does MS43 stand for?

MS42/43 ECUs run the M52TU/M54 family of motors



All in all my 'campaign' to run everything on OBD2 is based on a number of things ranging from my simple hatred of diagnostics on OBD1 24v swaps (have one currently in the shop that is giving me crap), to miles better overall drive-ability, better fine tuning of how the motor is running, capabilities for more power with more precision tuning and still having the safety of the OBD2 ECU behind you; and general reliability. Again not saying a similar OBD1 system cant be some of these things but it is what it is at the end of the day.

:hitler: :D

[shiboujin]

Anyone got a write up for OBD2 swaps then? I was concerned about deleting things like the egr stuff.

Also I went OBD1 because I had just parted out an early E36 and had all the parts lying around.

[luckysnafu]

Anyone got a write up for OBD2 swaps then? I was concerned about deleting things like the egr stuff.

If you have access to the entire donor car OBDII is the easiest and cheapest swap. This is what I did and it was a breeze. Even did the wiring myself and the car started on the first try (including me wiring the EWS crap).

Here is a write up for a complete m52 swap from Ireland. Best swap write up I have seen yet:

http://www.e30owners.com/forums/showthread.php?t=11856

Only main thing it's missing is the wiring diagrams. However, the wiring for an OBDII swap is almost exactly the same as all other swaps. EWS is fairly easy with only 7 total wires to worry about.

Maybe one of these days when I have a little time I'll put together a write up for OBDII swaps...

[shiboujin]

Hate EWS >_<

[Roysneon]

I'd love to have the time to properly swap in a working EWS system.

[nando]

isn't EWS2 trivial to bypass anyway?

[328ijunkie]

EWS1 is. Its whats in the Silver label OBD1 413s. EWS2 in the OBD2 ECU's is only able to be flashed out.

[shiboujin]

Isn't EWS 1 deletable with a chip and snipping pin 66? or is it just snipping pin 66?

[nando]

EWS1 is. Its whats in the Silver label OBD1 413s. EWS2 in the OBD2 ECU's is only able to be flashed out.

I'm pretty sure you can buy a $20 peice of chinese hardware that will eliminate it. Not that the tune that comes with an EWS delete flash isn't worth it, but it doesn't *have* to be flashed out. EWS3+, though..

[328ijunkie]

Chip.

[nando]

Chip.

http://www.xcar360.com/e34-e36-e38-e39-e46-bmw-emulator.html

http://www.xcar360.com/bmw-ews-immo.html

FYI EWS 3.2 is basically the same thing as EWS 2, just slightly different hardware.