N52 Swap Discussion

[hoveringuy]

I'm still hoping CWLO gets his car to the Dyno. <hint>

[Bored]

I'm still hoping CWLO gets his car to the Dyno. <hint>

Any particular reason you're looking for CWLO to get his car dyno'd? If its an N52B30, output should be between 215 bhp to 268 bhp assuming its mostly stock. I'm sure a manifold swap, header changes, tune, as well as potential MILV inclusion could boost the numbers appreciably.

Is there anything in particular that sets his apart?

I haven't followed in detail if he coupled it to non-n52 transmission or differential which would potentially show more parasitic drag.

But this is just me bumping it. ;]

[hoveringuy]

He has an N54 manifold, among other things. A strong Dyno in an e30 would certainly motivate me to push this swap and upgrade my 250whp M54.

[Motheye99]

He has an N54 manifold, among other things. A strong Dyno in an e30 would certainly motivate me to push this swap and upgrade my 250whp M54.

Do you have a thread for that motor? I'm getting ready to do my own m54 swap and I'd really like to see what made 250whp.

[cwlo]

Regarding engine wiring harness, half of the e90 harness is too short to reach the glovebox. I used that part from an X3. ( I believe its the section that goes to the other side of the engine for alternator, throttle, maf, etc..)


Engine mounts: Issue here is that it should really be aluminum, since it mounts onto the magnesium block. My plan was to modify the z4 arms (which I did...approx 1"), and then fabricate new arms at a later date. I purchased some 1/2 or 3/8" alum plate to mount to the engine, and then thinner gauge for the rest, but I was concerned that the strength of the differing thickness in aluminum might have strength issues regarding weld penetration. I have a tig welder, and am competent, but not expert by any means. Anyway, The z4 arms are working well....I added additional gussets when I modified them, and they have given me no problems with now 6 or more autocrosses completed. Don't forget the engine is pretty darn light.


Regarding dyno, I know hovering is itching for one, but it should not be any different from the other n52 dyno's with N54 intake and milv. I had an m54 in this car before the n52, and while the M54 was similar down low, the N52 comes alive above 4500rpm and screams up top continuing to build power. Very similar to an s54. I just changed diffs from a 3.25 to 3.46 and it is a perfect combo for the engine's desire to play in the upper rpm band.

[The Dark Side of Will]

Don't forget that if you weld 6061-T6 aluminum, the HAZ is annealed. The whole part needs to be solutionized and then re-aged to achieve T6 strength. If you have access to a heat treating oven, that's not hard with a piece the size of an engine mount arm, but does need to be done.

[Bored]

Regarding engine wiring harness, half of the e90 harness is too short to reach the glovebox. I used that part from an X3. ( I believe its the section that goes to the other side of the engine for alternator, throttle, maf, etc..)


Engine mounts: Issue here is that it should really be aluminum, since it mounts onto the magnesium block. My plan was to modify the z4 arms (which I did...approx 1"), and then fabricate new arms at a later date. I purchased some 1/2 or 3/8" alum plate to mount to the engine, and then thinner gauge for the rest, but I was concerned that the strength of the differing thickness in aluminum might have strength issues regarding weld penetration. I have a tig welder, and am competent, but not expert by any means. Anyway, The z4 arms are working well....I added additional gussets when I modified them, and they have given me no problems with now 6 or more autocrosses completed. Don't forget the engine is pretty darn light.


Regarding dyno, I know hovering is itching for one, but it should not be any different from the other n52 dyno's with N54 intake and milv. I had an m54 in this car before the n52, and while the M54 was similar down low, the N52 comes alive above 4500rpm and screams up top continuing to build power. Very similar to an s54. I just changed diffs from a 3.25 to 3.46 and it is a perfect combo for the engine's desire to play in the upper rpm band.

CWLO,

Is it two separate harnesses that you're talking about? Just wondering how much we could mix and match before we need to dice and splice.

Couldn't a work-around for the corrosion be aluminum plates to sandwich between the steel arm, and the engine block? Or some sort of sleeve/insert? A bolt through design, essentially aluminum washers? This way we can have the strength of the steel and avoid the corrosion issues associated with the magnesium-steel contact?

Just spitballing there, only seen the parts on realoem so... I could be completely off base with my ideas.

The Dark Side of Will
Don't forget that if you weld 6061-T6 aluminum, the HAZ is annealed. The whole part needs to be solutionized and then re-aged to achieve T6 strength. If you have access to a heat treating oven, that's not hard with a piece the size of an engine mount arm, but does need to be done.

Hey, another VA member!

Is that a common enough procedure to be able to find local shops to have this process?

[cwlo]

My build is certainly not the definitive way of doing things, so I encourage other approaches. An aluminum plate bolted to the block with an isolated ring to bolt the steel arm could be made to work:

https://www.cachassisworks.com/cac_press_5914-XXX.html

Only thing is that the engine arm on passenger side is more in tension than compression, as the mounting is almost directly horizontal to the subframe attachment.



The main dme harness is comprised of separate ones that just slide in to the connector. Start with the harness you get, and then you can swap one or two of the smaller ones as needed. I used a lot of X3 stuff, because you can get it dirt cheap on ebay if you are patient and bid low....I used part of the harness, brake booster, rear muffler, ektp.


ForcedFirebird said he was going to start this swap.....curious to see if he's made any headway.

[The Dark Side of Will]

CWLO,

Is it two separate harnesses that you're talking about? Just wondering how much we could mix and match before we need to dice and splice.

Couldn't a work-around for the corrosion be aluminum plates to sandwich between the steel arm, and the engine block? Or some sort of sleeve/insert? A bolt through design, essentially aluminum washers? This way we can have the strength of the steel and avoid the corrosion issues associated with the magnesium-steel contact?

Just spitballing there, only seen the parts on realoem so... I could be completely off base with my ideas.



Hey, another VA member!

Is that a common enough procedure to be able to find local shops to have this process?

GM used some specially coated steel bolts on a transfer case with magnesium housing... not sure what they're coated with, though.

Re-heat treating aluminum is a varsity skill... Very very few shops will know what you're asking for if you ask for post weld solutionize and T6 heat treatment.

The temp and soak time specs are readily available online... all you need is a heat treating oven and time. You could actually do the aging (the T6 part) in your household oven.

[LJ851]

Porsche bolted painted steel to magnesium gearboxes and engines for many years, with steel bolts/studs.

Not saying its the best way but its not a major corrosion point on the ones i have worked with that are several decades old.

[cwlo]

Upon further thought, the engine mounts fit onto the round bosses of the block in a tight fashion. It needed to actually be tapped off once I got the screws out. So I think a steel mount might be a bit of a compromise, and introduce other complications, as its more the interference fit of the mount onto the block, rather than the bolt that supports everything.

[digger]

Don't forget that if you weld 6061-T6 aluminum, the HAZ is annealed. The whole part needs to be solutionized and then re-aged to achieve T6 strength. If you have access to a heat treating oven, that's not hard with a piece the size of an engine mount arm, but does need to be done.

Just design it to work when annealed. It's not difficult to make something strong as the loads aren't high. I'd be worried about weld fatigue cracks over time which rehardening doesn't really address.

You could also bolt a tapped alloy pad to the block and bolt a steel fabricated bracket to it

[Bored]

Finally someone replied so I can type again... CWLO's install uses the z4 arms, and they are off by what sounded like 2" (too forward I think?). There is no factory engine arm that positions the block correctly, because the "block side" of the engine arms has changed from all of the interchangeable e36 and m5x arms. There are cars that have had both the M5x and N52 engine installed from factory, but they're the cars which you'd need to source alternate arms to use as a donor (that is, if you take an M54 from a Z4, you need to find arms from an E36 to locate the block in your e30. Since the N52 offered in the Z4 is "only" in cars with the motor mounts in the wrong place for the e30, something needs to be fabricated).

I believe CWLO solved this by cutting the Z4 arms, respositioning them, and re-welding. I don't have a lot of confidence in this as a long term solution for the group for a few reasons. It's not particularly reproducible, I don't love the idea of welding the optimized/gusseted/webbed design of the arm, and I don't love the idea of (myself, certainly) welding a cast aluminum piece.

My goal for the engine and trans mounts is to base the location front-to-back on the shifter position, expecting that this will give me firewall and radiator clearance. I have a friend with an N52 328i to give me a good reference for centerline and longitudinal rotation, and then I'm expecting to have to build my own arms out of plate. Ideally I'll do this with enough competence that my pieces could be re-cut and assembled to locate any N52 in any e30?

I'm expecting to give up on power brakes and retain ABS

Hubcapboy,

Have you had any further luck getting measurements in the engine and trans placement?

Once you get it mocked up with the shifter as the main point of reference, could you get us some clearance measurements? Specifically between the engine/transmission and the firewall, engine/transmission and the front radiator support, intake manifold to brake booster/master cylinder?

Will you be using the three stage intake manifold, the 128i intake manifold, n54 intake manifold, or something else?

With all this talk I'm looking for potential n52 cars in junkyards... maybe the local race shop/my neighbor can help make something happen. At that point we'll be able to get another set of measurements and potential insight on how to solve things.

[hoveringuy]

This is 2019. Doesn't anyone have access to a Faro arm to input all of the critical dimensions and clearance areas into a CAD model?

[hubcapboy]

My assumption that I’ll lose the brake booster is based on my donor engine being from a manual 330i with the three stage. I can’t come up with a good reason to source an intake with less potential. I was set back significantly by having to go through a house move, but the red car came with me and I’ll get back at it soon enough. I picked up that shell specifically because I didn’t want to be in a time crunch with the engine out of my daily. I won’t be making any secret progress, I promise.

To be able to 3d scan and CAD the arms without mocking up the engine bay, you’d need a Z4 arms for the M54 and z4 arms for the N52, and e36 arms for the M5x to be able to move from one reference to the next to get geometry from the engine side of the n52 arms to mount side of the E36 arms.... and you’d be stuck with using the swap engine mounts that other people are using for M5x swaps (are those 5 series? M5? It’s whatever hoveringuy has under the hood). I’m hoping to base my arm geometry off the e90-era hydraulic motor mounts... mostly because if I have to start over connecting the dots I may as well make that upgrade at the same time.




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