M20 Management shootout, MS2 vs Haltech vs?

[ForcedFirebird]

Half of the posts on here have talked about using e36 (m50) harness's and ecu's on M20's.
If you want sequential fueling you'll need a cam sensor anyways. It makes sense to just use an m50 harness instead of cutting up an m20 one.

Is there something that you personally hate about Link ecu's? Or me?
Kinda like how I hate Megasquirt?


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No, no hate at all. I've just been here a long time and read a lot of threads. It comes off as a sales pitch when every thread about a stand alone comes up, you keep it short and (in more words), say "just buy a Link". I know you hate MS, not sure why, but it is an open source ECU with a lot of features that people take advantage of.

Not much different than the huge comprehensive thread that got lost on e30tech about tuning the Motronic systems. Everyone said "just get a PNP", when it does nothing of value for the thread or info in it. When I started posting here a decade ago, the short answer to anyone modifying an m20 was "just put an m50 in it". Posts like that have no weight in a conversation. When a person posts about a feature, map, or even tricked a stock ECU into doing what they want, the end-all be-all answer isn't always the path you would like them to take. Some people enjoy thinking outside the box, and decide they don't want to jump off the cliff with the rest of the lemmings.

Honestly I think the Link looks like a great setup, and is right on target for value vs features, but, the "pigeon on the chessboard" attitude will always get a rebuttal.

[berlow94]

Please read the thread title. Where does it mention m50?

Half of the posts on here have talked about using e36 (m50) harness's and ecu's on M20's.
If you want sequential fueling you'll need a cam sensor anyways. It makes sense to just use an m50 harness instead of cutting up an m20 one.

Is there something that you personally hate about Link ecu's? Or me?
Kinda like how I hate Megasquirt?


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[ForcedFirebird]

I wouldn't call that a sales pitch...

For the money, do you think that there is a better PnP M50 computer on the market?

Regardless of money, do you think that there is a better computer out there than Emtron?


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Please read the thread title. Where does it mention m50?

[berlow94]

Not surprised. I've had no issues with the m1.3 as long as I am tuning live.



I was waiting for you to come in with your sales pitch!

I wouldn't call that a sales pitch...

For the money, do you think that there is a better PnP M50 computer on the market?

Regardless of money, do you think that there is a better computer out there than Emtron?


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[ForcedFirebird]

Fwiw I've seen the markD tunes from MM and they're not even eBay quality.

Not surprised. I've had no issues with the m1.3 as long as I am tuning live.

Another option to think about is Link's PnP ECU for M50 hanress's. At $1,200 it is a fantastic computer!

http://tinyurl.com/zbzqxyt

It does several things that the Wolf, AMU, and Haltech can't do in that pricepoint. Although nothing that is needed on an M20...

For a non-PnP solution, the Link Fury is pretty nice too. Better transients and closed loop knock control than the other guys and has a wideband o2 controller built in. (Roughly $1,600)

If money is no object, then Emtron KV8 spanks all!

I was waiting for you to come in with your sales pitch!

[berlow94]

M20 Management shootout, MS2 vs Haltech vs?

Another option to think about is Link's PnP ECU for M50 hanress's. At $1,200 it is a fantastic computer!

http://tinyurl.com/zbzqxyt

It does several things that the Wolf, EMU, and Haltech can't do in that pricepoint. Although nothing that is needed on an M20...

For a non-PnP solution, the Link Fury is pretty nice too. Better transients and closed loop knock control than the other guys and has a wideband o2 controller built in. (Roughly $1,600)

If money is no object, then Emtron KV8 spanks all!

[squidmaster]

Fwiw I've seen the markD tunes from MM and they're not even eBay quality.

[downforce22]

i had to go back almost 9 years to find this

Run028 is a 3.1 MM based stroker custom tuned on dyno with original motronic ECU with m30 AFM and BBTB. original chip was based on MarkD chip MM use for motor of same spec that was then fine tuned on a dyno dynamics dyno so about as close to optimal as possible on motronic.

after plot run 031 is with PNP wolf v500 swap (batch fired and dizzy running Alpha-N on stock cast intake) AFM delete

the tune on run 031 is crap extremely rich bottom end and random shitty timing map i found on internet and gave to tuner before install he didnt even modify but im sure he billed me like he did;) no e30tech tune thread at that point to copy from.

its a 200whp engine so more than stock but pretty mild for these days no more power than what you'd get with a half decent screwed together 2.8L,

it seems to like the AFM delete and its the big six AFM to. i'm not sure where the added power came from if not the from the AFM delete as tune was for all intensive purposes optimal before. only mods were ECU, AFM + flex elbow delete replace with silicone elbow. mechanically engine is identical in both runs and runs are less than a couple months apart

for sure the big stroke and bore draws alot harder on the induction than the stock engine but we arent really proposing this thread for bone stock engines either...

the dyno shop is independent.



anyway that is my attempt at showing what a motronic and AFM delete does on modded m20 stroker engine

Thanks for the info, do you know what headwork /cam this engine had at the time?

[digger]

It doesn't. An M20 that retains the stock intake path won't flow enough air or make enough power for the M1.3 system to be a liability. As I have said before, pretty much any serious NA M20 build goes straight for ITBs and then aftermarket EMS is pretty much mandatory.. If you're doing a more radical build with a custom intake manifold and long tube headers stuff, you won't be worried about the cost of standalone vs adapting E36 motronic and probably want the features aftermarket EMS offers.



Volvo did this with LH-Jetronic 2.X, but it uses a MAF as opposed to a mechanical AFM.

having been on forums like this on 4 continents over past 12 years youd be suprised how many people dont consider tuning one of the most important aspects of the build. the other thing is never underestimate how people will try and adapt shit from other engines to their own to save a few $$$. Each to their own

[digger]

i had to go back almost 9 years to find this

Run028 is a 3.1 MM based stroker custom tuned on dyno with original motronic ECU with m30 AFM and BBTB. original chip was based on MarkD chip MM use for motor of same spec that was then fine tuned on a dyno dynamics dyno so about as close to optimal as possible on motronic.

after plot run 031 is with PNP wolf v500 swap (batch fired and dizzy running Alpha-N on stock cast intake) AFM delete

the tune on run 031 is crap extremely rich bottom end and random shitty timing map i found on internet and gave to tuner before install he didnt even modify but im sure he billed me like he did;) no e30tech tune thread at that point to copy from.

its a 200whp engine so more than stock but pretty mild for these days no more power than what you'd get with a half decent screwed together 2.8L,

it seems to like the AFM delete and its the big six AFM to. i'm not sure where the added power came from if not the from the AFM delete as tune was for all intensive purposes optimal before. only mods were ECU, AFM + flex elbow delete replace with silicone elbow. mechanically engine is identical in both runs and runs are less than a couple months apart

for sure the big stroke and bore draws alot harder on the induction than the stock engine but we arent really proposing this thread for bone stock engines either...

the dyno shop is independent.



anyway that is my attempt at showing what a motronic and AFM delete does on modded m20 stroker engine

[varg]

by dismissing the better motronic system saying the 1.3 is good enough what you are implying is that a NA m20 street engine doesnt really need any standalone at all.

It doesn't. An M20 that retains the stock intake path won't flow enough air or make enough power for the M1.3 system to be a liability. As I have said before, pretty much any serious NA M20 build goes straight for ITBs and then aftermarket EMS is pretty much mandatory.. If you're doing a more radical build with a custom intake manifold and long tube headers stuff, you won't be worried about the cost of standalone vs adapting E36 motronic and probably want the features aftermarket EMS offers.

Neither of them can recognize positive pressure, yet Porsche was successful for many years using an AFM on OEM turbo engines

Volvo did this with LH-Jetronic 2.X, but it uses a MAF as opposed to a mechanical AFM.

[Northern]

I'm biased, but if we're swapping newer ECU's/harnesses, I think MS41 would be the way to go. Just mimic the M52 cam trigger setup so you can retain the weird cam sensor and then you get live diagnostics/codes/reflashable chip for your efforts.

Still limited to a MAF, but you could do the conversion pretty cheap, except for the euro MS41 crank sensor (or maybe it's possible to drill/tap the block for the rear mount CPS)

A lot of work just to be different, or just to be rid of M1.x

[ForcedFirebird]

I should flow the AFM vs a tube on the bench. That would squash all arguments. I have a strong feeling that the very light spring in it has less to do with the performance gain over the algorithms and speed of the processor.

[downforce22]

by dismissing the better motronic system saying the 1.3 is good enough what you are implying is that a NA m20 street engine doesnt really need any standalone at all.

i say this because In truth my standalone WOLF V500 which is quite old now probably came out in 2007 or so doesnt do a whole lot more than M3.x as far as functions that i actually use are concerned except be more straight forward to access. yet it offered much better driveability and performance compared to a custom M1.3 chip which was developed on the dyno at great expense.

In truth any system that gets rid if the AFM setup and uses a proper tps is a really big step up in all aspects. for sure you can run a decent stroker on a M1.3 but youre actually leaving alot on the table. also its a fallacy that you dont get good gains by removing the AFM with a mild setup, ive seen it with my own eyes

we should get back onto true standalones as there are alot of good options out there compared to 5-10 years ago

On a system with the AFM I could see gains on an N/A engine, but are there gains to be had on a Speed Density system? The afm would just be a restriction in the air intake causing a bit of a pressure drop.

I ask because I still have the afm (for the IAT sensor) eventhough I am boosted and running speed density with a turbo. I believe I'm losing a bit of pressure due to the restriction but once I hit 0 psi, it is a moot point, right?

Anyway back to standalones, I have to no knowledge of systems aside from MS2

[digger]

lol you're talking to me like I haven't been tinkering with standalone EMS for the better part of a decade, I'm not some chump off the street, if you peek at my build thread you'll see that I built my ECU from a kit, tuned my car from scratch, and this isn't the first time I've done it. Yes, any knuckledragger with access to a dyno can make peak numbers, but you're not completely re-tuning for driveability from scratch when you start tuning Motronic 1.3 for a modded engine, you're modifying stock tables and adders. It is quite easy for someone with a little tuning knowledge to tell when you need to add a little fuel here and a little timing there vs a stock tune - the hard part with motronic is knowing how to tweak it, and E36 motronic won't make that easier.

As for on the cheap, adapting the M5X ecu for use on an M20 and re-tuning would be significantly more expensive and difficult than having one of the reputable Motronic tuners tune your Motronic 1.3 for your specific modded NA engine. I seriously doubt you're going to run into issues with throttle response and AFM restriction with a NA setup that still uses the stock intake path, M20s just don't flow enough to cause a problem without loads of work, and to get to that point you're spending enough money that going standalone is no big deal. As stated before, serious NA builds tend to have ITBs so M5X engine management won't simplify much there, pretty much anything you use will have to be tuned from scratch with ITBs.

You said you're "surprised nobody does it" and I'm just trying to make the point that people aren't doing it because it's more effort than it is worth. It's just not worth it for coil on plug unless you're beyond the stock ignition system's capabilities (you won't do this without a turbo) and sequential injection is great for fuel economy but nobody is building a hypermiler E30 and nobody is having driveability issues caused by Motronic 1.3's batch fire.

Paging forcedfirebird who knows full well from his Motronic tuning experience the limitations and lack thereof of when it comes to Motronic 1.3. He may have even done what you're talking about before.

by dismissing the better motronic system saying the 1.3 is good enough what you are implying is that a NA m20 street engine doesnt really need any standalone at all.

i say this because In truth my standalone WOLF V500 which is quite old now probably came out in 2007 or so doesnt do a whole lot more than M3.x as far as functions that i actually use are concerned except be more straight forward to access. yet it offered much better driveability and performance compared to a custom M1.3 chip which was developed on the dyno at great expense.

In truth any system that gets rid if the AFM setup and uses a proper tps is a really big step up in all aspects. for sure you can run a decent stroker on a M1.3 but youre actually leaving alot on the table. also its a fallacy that you dont get good gains by removing the AFM with a mild setup, ive seen it with my own eyes

we should get back onto true standalones as there are alot of good options out there compared to 5-10 years ago