M20 Baffles

[thesalboy]

that sounds about right

that guy special made one for my ix motor. I didn't have time to fit it to the crank, so I left it out. then I lost it. :(

Were you using a pan baffle? If so what kind?

Anyone else have anything to say about which pan baffles you've used, and whether you have experienced oiling failure using only a pan baffle?

Thanks much.

[ForcedFirebird]

that sounds about right

that guy special made one for my ix motor. I didn't have time to fit it to the crank, so I left it out. then I lost it. :(

They are an awesome group of people. They are here in Florida, but several hours north. We always talk about visiting them when on a road trip and always forget or are in a hurry once on the road.

[nando]

that sounds about right

that guy special made one for my ix motor. I didn't have time to fit it to the crank, so I left it out. then I lost it. :(

[ForcedFirebird]

I'm pretty sure the crank scraper had nothing to do with it and something else caused your ring failure. people have been running crank scrapers in M20s for 10 years now, possibly longer.

We have sold hundreds of crank scrapers with zero failures. We have been selling/installing Ishihara-Johnson scrapers since 2004 or 2005 IIRC, and they have been selling them for years prior for all kinds of racing applications from drag car to hydroplanes to circle track cars (they created the GM 60 degree v6 scraper for us). I believe they developed the m20 scraper in 2002.

[nando]

I disagree, and rings are not the only part of the piston that needs oil. I ran an IE scraper in an M20 that started eating oil at about a quart an hour, shortly before it grenaded. Post-mortem: #3 piston failed at the wrist pin bosses. #1 compression rings broken into 20 pieces. Cylinder walls polished. I'm pretty sure the scraper prevented oil getting up to where it needs to go.

I'd rather just run a baffle on the next motor. Glad to hear some on here run a baffle alone and maintain oil pressure. But which baffle is best? I'd appreciate anyone who runs a baffle sharing what they run.

Baffles from IE and TCMotorsports seem pretty simple - just a flat horizontal piece of metal with just enough clearance for the pump.

VAC adds vertical pieces with hinged flappers. So does this one from Advanced Auto Fabrication: http://www.hardmotorsport.com/AAF-E3...E30OILBAFF.htm

But I'm concerned about all of these because they so closely encircle the pump - might that actually prevent oil from returning to the sump? The 2006 Metric Mechanic brochure shows a modified stock pan - hinged flapper door cut into kick-out baffle and just a small rectangular lip over the oil drain (see page 12 of http://www.metricmechanic.com/pdf/M2...ne-Booklet.pdf). Does anyone know if MM still goes this route?

Thanks calz4m for the tip on oil level delete.

I'm pretty sure the crank scraper had nothing to do with it and something else caused your ring failure. people have been running crank scrapers in M20s for 10 years now, possibly longer.

[Northern]

and its not like they just recently started using them either.

[digger]

there are lots of people running scrapers in the M20 not so sure that it was the reason for grenading the engine

[thesalboy]

A scraper isn't going to affect ring wear.

I disagree, and rings are not the only part of the piston that needs oil. I ran an IE scraper in an M20 that started eating oil at about a quart an hour, shortly before it grenaded. Post-mortem: #3 piston failed at the wrist pin bosses. #1 compression rings broken into 20 pieces. Cylinder walls polished. I'm pretty sure the scraper prevented oil getting up to where it needs to go.

I'd rather just run a baffle on the next motor. Glad to hear some on here run a baffle alone and maintain oil pressure. But which baffle is best? I'd appreciate anyone who runs a baffle sharing what they run.

Baffles from IE and TCMotorsports seem pretty simple - just a flat horizontal piece of metal with just enough clearance for the pump.

VAC adds vertical pieces with hinged flappers. So does this one from Advanced Auto Fabrication: http://www.hardmotorsport.com/AAF-E3...E30OILBAFF.htm

But I'm concerned about all of these because they so closely encircle the pump - might that actually prevent oil from returning to the sump? The 2006 Metric Mechanic brochure shows a modified stock pan - hinged flapper door cut into kick-out baffle and just a small rectangular lip over the oil drain (see page 12 of http://www.metricmechanic.com/pdf/M2...ne-Booklet.pdf). Does anyone know if MM still goes this route?

Thanks calz4m for the tip on oil level delete.

[jlevie]

A scraper isn't going to affect ring wear.

[MitchD1283]

digging up from the grave.....

so, the m20 from what I understand doesn't have oil squirters for the cylinders. If the crank scraper is installed, would that cause the rings to wear since the oil isn't going up the block? If I just installed the oil baffle, would I be okay?

Anyone have any opinions?

[Jon325i]

All good info - thanks guys :-)

The IJ Scraper (Ishihara-Johnson) looks like a good one. A lot of development has gone into it and the price for the steel one @ $109 seems reasonable. I did further research and several SpecE30 racers are really happy with the IJ piece.

I've also sent off an e-mail to Metric Mechanic since they make a scraper too, but their website doesn't give too many details. It'll be interesting to see what they say. They also offer some kind of baffled oil pan.....which I inquired about as well.

Jon

[ForcedFirebird]

I would like to see the dyno results on that...especially on an M20. No one is winning or losing races in SE30 because of a scraper. IF there is a power difference it's got to be so nominal it wouldn't make a difference on the track.

Got to IJ's site. They dynoed 3.5% more power on a Nissan at 7000RPM.

If it was a waste of time, then so is lightening the flywheel, knife edging a crank or lightening pistons.

[calz4m]

I would like to see the dyno results on that...especially on an M20. No one is winning or losing races in SE30 because of a scraper. IF there is a power difference it's got to be so nominal it wouldn't make a difference on the track.

You have measured the difference? The Teflon is supposed to have less than .005" clearance after bedding and can safely make contact with the rotating parts. Are you really able to get that close with a steel version? That's barely more than the thickness of typing paper.



Correct, it will keep your oil pressure up, but cavitation above the baffle will still keep excess oil on and around the crank. On the dyno, it's proven that a scraper will increase power, it lightens the rotating assy. Couple that information with track conditions and there's more power we don;t know about since it would be almost impossible to replicate a hard corner on a dyno.

[blueapplesoda]

I put a scraper in cause the car would experience more than "Natural" g's due to turbo and big sticky tires and blah blah blah. And it was cheap enough as a why the hell not part.

[ForcedFirebird]

Properly fitted, the clearances of a steel scraper will be very close to where a teflon lined scraper will wind up after use. So there is very little long term advantage to the teflon variety. The advantage of the teflon scraper is ease of installation and somewhat better initial operation. But after a couple of years of racing I see about the same clearance on engine tear down.

You have measured the difference? The Teflon is supposed to have less than .005" clearance after bedding and can safely make contact with the rotating parts. Are you really able to get that close with a steel version? That's barely more than the thickness of typing paper.

I ran a baffle only....as used by the pro 3 guys...


Very simple, I bolted mine in...it worked perfectly. The lh'er at LRP was putting me below 7 lbs...after the baffle= 25lbs min.....based on vdo aux op gauge.

I didn't see the need for both scraper and baffle....

Correct, it will keep your oil pressure up, but cavitation above the baffle will still keep excess oil on and around the crank. On the dyno, it's proven that a scraper will increase power, it lightens the rotating assy. Couple that information with track conditions and there's more power we don;t know about since it would be almost impossible to replicate a hard corner on a dyno.