ZDDP Oil Additives

[ForcedFirebird]

i would buy breakin oil over an additive. the breakin oil hopefully has everything designed to work together. slapping a bottle of ZDDP in a "random oil" in my opinion is not going to work as well albeit better than nothing

Exactly.

Or, just use M1 15w50, cause it works well without another $15 in additives :p

and again, but I agree, not best for break in.

It's really not that difficult. Avoid synthetic for ring break-in (I have not had any issues breaking in cams on synthetic with adequate zddp). Just is very disheartening to put a nice new shiny cam in your car (m20, or any flat tappet/solid rocker etc) and wonder why you have a strange miss a few months later. People can tell me all they want about what they read on the internet, or was told by "someone" how/what to do - BUT - nothing beats personal experience.

Just last year, had to replace a cam in a built Ford 400 motor in my neighbors truck (freshly restored '78 F250 4x4 with a crate 351m), number one lobe was wiped so bad after just a few thousand miles, the lobe was basically non-existent. He brought it to another mechanic who shaved the rocker pedestal down to compensate, seeing it is a non-adjustable rocker setup - this other "mechanic" thought the lash may heve been off. That lasted a few weeks until he brought the truck into our shop. Didn't take us long to diagnose what happened, so he not only had to pay for a new cam/install, he also had to buy a new rocker arm because someone put a band-aid on it. Simple removal of the valve covers while running showed the rocker was hardly moving at all.

Before anyone says "that's a Ford engine" - it doesn't matter. Typical cam buckets (lifter, whatever you call them) and other modern roller cam motors don't need zddp, because, the surfaces are not two hardened objects rubbing directly together, and wear together as a unit. Old technology that used outdated oil when built need to be treated as such, and it's a simple factor - most over the counter oils that are fine for modern engines are not good for engines that were build before these changes. This also works in reverse. Most modern motors have tighter tolerances to ward off oil consumption typically use thinner oils, with almost no zddp, to pass strict emissions standards.

For a simple comparison, would you run leaded fuel in your e30? ;)

Take what I say with a grain of salt, but some of us have been driving and building cars since/before e30's were still fairly new (or new) cars.

[TobyB]

Ah, yes, but if you have a new engine, the synthetic doesn't play well with ring sealing.

And sure, now you can buy a good- quality dino break- in oil, so why not?

Back when this first happened, that was harder (circa 2006, I seem to remember)
when they were just taking out the zddp and not saying anything about it.

t

[nando]

Or, just use M1 15w50, cause it works well without another $15 in additives :p

[digger]

Whups, I thought faster than my fingers type- I meant to say, the 0-40 has a bit more than
most of the other Mobil synthetics, not than the 15-50.

And yes, you can break your M20 in on anything you want, sure. It will probably
work out ok.

But sometimes it doesn't.

Seems like that happens more and more these days.

Because the oil you used 15 years ago isn't the same as what you get now.

A bottle of additive is something like $15 bucks.

Why NOT???

meh.

t

i would buy breakin oil over an additive. the breakin oil hopefully has everything designed to work together. slapping a bottle of ZDDP in a "random oil" in my opinion is not going to work as well albeit better than nothing

[TobyB]

Re-read the link you posted. The 0-40 has LESS zddp and zinc than 15-50 (1000/1100 vs 1200/1300).

Whups, I thought faster than my fingers type- I meant to say, the 0-40 has a bit more than
most of the other Mobil synthetics, not than the 15-50.

And yes, you can break your M20 in on anything you want, sure. It will probably
work out ok.

But sometimes it doesn't.

Seems like that happens more and more these days.

Because the oil you used 15 years ago isn't the same as what you get now.

A bottle of additive is something like $15 bucks.

Why NOT???

meh.

t

[TobyB]

Yummmm, sliding friction!

After replacing the cam, rockers and all 4 (almost new) pistons in the race car,
I started paying a lot more attention to zddp and what my cam grinder said,
and a lot less to marketing and
what I read on the internet.

t

[ForcedFirebird]

I don't think anyone would suggest a 5w30 modern synthetic in an M20. the ZDDP levels of those oils are typically less than 1000ppm.

I've read enough of this thread and on others in different forums. Yes I do know oils have changed over the years and our zddp levels reduced to meet emissions standards since apparently zddp poisons cats. Many people switched over to diesel oils in order to stay within the required zddp levels, but then again we got hammered with the new CI-4 or CJ-4 rating? I don' t recall which one was newer rating with reduced additive packages. Most 200k m20's are way out of their factory tolerances to make any good use of high zddp. On the flip side yes, a refreshed m20 would greatly benefit from a good amount of zddp. My argument is for an old m20 anything with the proper weight and by a reputable manufacture is usable.

OK. Guess you know what you are talking about in all your years of wisdom? You are driving your first car, right?

[estoguy]

LOL! Analysissays far less....shows how much they know when you call. Still adequate, but I would never believe a phone call - they WANT you to buy their product.

http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums...Number=2365766

Thanks for that. :) I've found that the car seems pretty happy with it, and I feel better running on a synthetic as opposed to dino, especially for the coming winter. The Castrol GTX I was using wasn't any better on the zinc.

I was also considering the Rotella T6 5w40 as well. But I've been really lucky and been able to get the Castol 5w50 on sale. Right now I have three 5L jugs waiting to be used... got around $30 plus tax at Crappy Tire.

[3vilE30]

Did you read this whole thread? Oils have changed quite a bit due to emissions regulations. Oils were very different when our cars were made from they are today. Flat tappet/solid rocker arms are obsolete - today's cars don't need much ZDDP, and the oils don't contain very much of it.

I've read enough of this thread and on others in different forums. Yes I do know oils have changed over the years and our zddp levels reduced to meet emissions standards since apparently zddp poisons cats. Many people switched over to diesel oils in order to stay within the required zddp levels, but then again we got hammered with the new CI-4 or CJ-4 rating? I don' t recall which one was newer rating with reduced additive packages. Most 200k m20's are way out of their factory tolerances to make any good use of high zddp. On the flip side yes, a refreshed m20 would greatly benefit from a good amount of zddp. My argument is for an old m20 anything with the proper weight and by a reputable manufacture is usable.

[ForcedFirebird]

Back in April I switched to the Castrol Edge 5w50. The advertise it towards "classic car engines". I called them up to find out about the zinc content. I was told 1500 PPM.

Been running it since then with no problems.

LOL! Analysissays far less....shows how much they know when you call. Still adequate, but I would never believe a phone call - they WANT you to buy their product.

http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums...Number=2365766

[estoguy]

Back in April I switched to the Castrol Edge 5w50. The advertise it towards "classic car engines". I called them up to find out about the zinc content. I was told 1500 PPM.

Been running it since then with no problems.

[ForcedFirebird]

Oh no! another zddp/oil thread, food for thought how does oil from when these engines were made compare to modern oils?

IMO just use what you think is right for your needs. Of course you can use super high zinc oils such as amsoil, redline etc...Most of our m20's are well within 200k+ range at that point using lets say amsoil/redline 20w-50 over castrol 20w-50 is just a fringe benefit. A total contradiction to what I previously stated I do tend to go for oils that are known to be good performers, but having cost as a filter to find what fits my needs.

Personally I use 15w-40 diesel valveoline premium blue, I don't recommend using it during summer (100+ degree weather) unless your summers aren't as harsh as sacramento's dry heat. Good cheap oil like most diesel oils
Delo, rotella, delvac etc... Good winter oil

I have tried valveoline vr1, I'll vouch for how smooth it runs especially in the heat. Then again it's a "racing oil" it did turn fairly dark within 1,500 miles.
Good for hot summers

Castrol is a great "neutral" oil, baseline for most 20w-50's does turn fairly dark quickly, but will gladly take 3k

I have been thinking of switching over to synthetics and their additive package, but our motors have seen conventional oils most of their lives and was factory tailor made to a 20w-50 conventional oil. I'd run synthetics if I did have a rebuilt motor for the added flow benefits.

Basically saying 20-50, 15-50, 15-40 and TWS (if you want to) oil today are good enough for m20's regardless of zddp content.
Just don't throw in some Walmart oil, anything by a reputable company works.

Did you read this whole thread? Oils have changed quite a bit due to emissions regulations. Oils were very different when our cars were made from they are today. Flat tappet/solid rocker arms are obsolete - today's cars don't need much ZDDP, and the oils don't contain very much of it.

[slammin.e28]

Once the lobe and rocker start to eat each-other, changing oil really isn't going to stop it. It was probably always serviced at a minute-lube place that uses recycled/cheap mystery oil.

Yup. It's thru the hardening. I'm not worried though. This engine has over 300k at least. Odometer broke years ago at 154k and the guy was a salesman and drove the car all over the east coast.

[ForcedFirebird]

This is the cam in my GF's 535is.


Oil change sticker had "5w30 SYN" scrawled on it in black sharpie.

Car is still running fine. I put VR1 in it with BG MOA. Adjusted the valves and within a week that lobe wore more and you can here it tick tick tick over all the other light engine noises. I get some of this...

...each time I change the oil though.

VR1 or go home on M20/30s.

Once the lobe and rocker start to eat each-other, changing oil really isn't going to stop it. It was probably always serviced at a minute-lube place that uses recycled/cheap mystery oil.

[3vilE30]

Oh no! another zddp/oil thread, food for thought how does oil from when these engines were made compare to modern oils?

IMO just use what you think is right for your needs. Of course you can use super high zinc oils such as amsoil, redline etc...Most of our m20's are well within 200k+ range at that point using lets say amsoil/redline 20w-50 over castrol 20w-50 is just a fringe benefit. A total contradiction to what I previously stated I do tend to go for oils that are known to be good performers, but having cost as a filter to find what fits my needs.

Personally I use 15w-40 diesel valveoline premium blue, I don't recommend using it during summer (100+ degree weather) unless your summers aren't as harsh as sacramento's dry heat. Good cheap oil like most diesel oils
Delo, rotella, delvac etc... Good winter oil

I have tried valveoline vr1, I'll vouch for how smooth it runs especially in the heat. Then again it's a "racing oil" it did turn fairly dark within 1,500 miles.
Good for hot summers

Castrol is a great "neutral" oil, baseline for most 20w-50's does turn fairly dark quickly, but will gladly take 3k

I have been thinking of switching over to synthetics and their additive package, but our motors have seen conventional oils most of their lives and was factory tailor made to a 20w-50 conventional oil. I'd run synthetics if I did have a rebuilt motor for the added flow benefits.

Basically saying 20-50, 15-50, 15-40 and TWS (if you want to) oil today are good enough for m20's regardless of zddp content.
Just don't throw in some Walmart oil, anything by a reputable company works.