Newly rebuilt M20 AFM - $70 (Standard MF20040) NOT a forsale thread

[noid]

I am, as much as you, curious to the quality of the AFM rebuild listed in your OP. Its the reason I've participated into this thread. I could have just stayed out of it but I'm open to explain my methods and techniques. That would be shady of me to keep my mouth shut and not explain how I rebuild AFM's. But I clearly display my techniques and tools.

And though I am not an engineer, I do have over 10+ years professional experience and 4+ years education in electronics technology. I also work full time in a Govn't National Laboratory Electrical Engineering division. So I assure you, that I beyond the scope and skills necessary to rebuild AFM's and much more. To me they are actually very simple, elementary devices.





Why are you even questioning me then?


This topic is pretty much beat to death. I think for the sake of us three, let's just refrain from commenting about each other. Firebird, Noid, Gregs///M should discontinue chat with each other. Any other members are more than welcome to chime in with your comments.

The conversation was based on methodology not technicality. I will accept your request, only because I see you are not addressing my concerns.

Please follow jeffnhiscars advice; there is no need to proclaim yourself more intelligent then others, especially when the topic at hand is not in relation to electrical technicality.

[ForcedFirebird]

Jeff appreciate your input, even if somewhat negative.

1. I never just jump into someone thread and present the final solution as "my services" I always provide technical troubleshooting advice first, and if all else fails, send me their failed product. Which I can fix at a reasonable and affordable price. That's quite nice of me BTW.

2. I admit that I sometimes get frustrated with the lack of research of members before they post help questions in the forum. It become frustrating that I often answer the same basic troubleshoot tips that can be easily found by searching first. I'm sure members Luke, and Jlevie know what I'm talking about.

3. I might not be the nicest guy on the forum but I provide advanced and intimate troubleshooting knowledge about electronics and other mechanics.

Repeating info is what kills the "old school" way of checking the internet.

If you do a search on m42 with a Getrag 260 on the internet, tell me what drive-shaft to use. If you can come up with the correct answer, I will personally post it in my signature.

[ForcedFirebird]

I don't start threads to help people (sometimes I do) but I comment on QUESTIONS people asking in various sections such as car audio, general technical, M20, etc. You can search the thousands of threads from bimmerforums (member since 2006.)

I asked specifically for MEASURED values. I own an E30 and E46 M3. I've also owned an E28, and E34. I've professionally worked on several hundreds of BMW's across all chassis'.

Still don't get why you couldn't go out to your own e30 and get CTS values. Just like I don't know why you can't go out to your e30 and plug in a 153 and see what I am talking about with the reference values. Same harness, same car, different ECU and you voltages change on reference.

[Gregs///M]

Being pretty much a live and let live kinda guy I may regret jumping in to this.

I do not have the technical expertise you have so have neither the ability nor a reason to question the merits of your position. However, I do have some observations which have stood out in my mind even before this thread came along and since the door has been flung wide open....

1. I notice that every time there's a post relating to anything electrical, you seem to jump in with an ad for your services. While Im a fan of self promotion I think there is a time and place for it (as well as rules) and that it gets old.

2. is that I see a pattern of you knocking everyone either because they don't know what they are doing, do not live up to your standards etc etc. Each to his own but it has always been my belief that speaking well of what you do and why it makes sense and offers good value is a far more effective way to promote your services rather than putting down the competition.

Again, I am not here to get in to a technical debate (nor any debate) but to say that while you may be the most competent repair car around, you could work on your marketing and diplomacy skills a bit and maybe have better results.

This is just my opinion and others may or may not share it..but you asked...we now return control of your TV to you

Jeff appreciate your input, even if somewhat negative.

1. I never just jump into someone thread and present the final solution as "my services" I always provide technical troubleshooting advice first, and if all else fails, send me their failed product. Which I can fix at a reasonable and affordable price. That's quite nice of me BTW.

2. I admit that I sometimes get frustrated with the lack of research of members before they post help questions in the forum. It become frustrating that I often answer the same basic troubleshoot tips that can be easily found by searching first. I'm sure members Luke, and Jlevie know what I'm talking about.

3. I might not be the nicest guy on the forum but I provide advanced and intimate troubleshooting knowledge about electronics and other mechanics.

[rwh11385]

Gregs///M is right on with you not being able to see as much with a DMM as you would the oscilloscope. Not that it would be a high hurdle to climb, but doing it the right way would include one. He's been more than open about his methods and tech, as to inform everyone what he does and could do themselves - although a good number of people would still prefer someone else to dot the job for them. (Although doing it yourself the right way > just doing it yourself how you think is fine but not really)

[Gregs///M]

Before we go any further, I do help out the community for free. Please see the thread titled "Offering free (yes free) garage, tools and help at my place in North York/Toronto" on maxbimmer. I also provide aftermarket parts, and I attempt to beat any publicly advertised price anywhere. Lets not forget I have also provided members here euro engines for a price that was far far lower then any competitor. I also run a website specifically to provide other enthusiasts free information. I have also been here since 2008. Do not talk to me about helping out the community.

I can see your argumentation structure is limited. For some unfounded reason you continue to parade your ability to use and understand oscilloscopes. Please see beyond the oscilloscope and address the real concerns. The problem is not your ABILITY to use an oscilloscope or to copy the reference points of another unit. I am not sure how I can simplify this any more for you, I feel as though I am spoon feeding now:

1. Any rebuild facility will have an oscilloscope.
2. An oscilloscope is not required if done at home, because it is a validating device, and nothing more.
3. It should be a cheaper service
4. It can be rebuilt better
5. Bending the arm up or down will make it travel a different distance because the surface is in an oval shape
6. Rebuilt Bosch unit - 0 986 280 003 New Bosch unit - 0 280 202 082
7. FI corp is a company that started in the late 70's in a guys garage and now employees 30 employees, it hardly has the scope or resources to play with the big guys. Especially Bosch.
8. Your research and reference points are based off a unit that has also had its arm bent, therefore your copying not researching. You do not have a new Bosch unit to reference, thus making you use hersay from FI corp.
9. You are a technician not an engineer. You lack the scope, and education to properly rebuild the unit. Lets not forget that I am NOT saying that you are not competent in what you advertise. You are. 'Properly' does not refer to following what you advertise rather as to the extent of not having the connections to gain factory specs, parts, nor equipment that Bosch would have. There is a possibility that a large company would have enough presence to strike a deal to use Bosch' proprietary information and be able to afford equipment and be able to reman a new board. Hence this thread and the desire to see how other units are rebuild.

Guess what? I am neither a technician nor an engineer (albeit I did take electrical engineering classes in secondary school :rofl:) . Do you see me rebuilding AFM's? No. Do you see me challenging your knowledge in using an oscilloscope? No. Do you see me questioning if you are able to preform this refurb? No. Did I ever say your customers arent happy? No. Did I say I can appreciate that people see value in your service? Yes.

Get your shit straight man, I am not and NEVER was questioning your ability to preform a bending of the arm and a verification. You are heavily confused as to what I am challenging you on. I am not sure if that is just you ignoring what I am saying, or just not understanding what I am saying.

For all we know BWD buys up genuine Bosch rebuilt units in bulk and resells them. So many possibilities. Could also be a unit that is rusted, bent, water damaged, or has a Chinese board.

No one is calling your service bad. There is just a desire to find out if other companies do it better and for cheaper. At the end of the day you aren't going to buy a Bosch unit to reference nor will you test your competition in fear that they may be rebuilding it better and offering their units for cheaper. Thus this conversation is moot.

I am, as much as you, curious to the quality of the AFM rebuild listed in your OP. Its the reason I've participated into this thread. I could have just stayed out of it but I'm open to explain my methods and techniques. That would be shady of me to keep my mouth shut and not explain how I rebuild AFM's. But I clearly display my techniques and tools.

And though I am not an engineer, I do have over 10+ years professional experience and 4+ years education in electronics technology. I also work full time in a Govn't National Laboratory Electrical Engineering division. So I assure you, that I beyond the scope and skills necessary to rebuild AFM's and much more. To me they are actually very simple, elementary devices.

Don't get me wrong I know jack shit about electrical engineering.

Why are you even questioning me then?


This topic is pretty much beat to death. I think for the sake of us three, let's just refrain from commenting about each other. Firebird, Noid, Gregs///M should discontinue chat with each other. Any other members are more than welcome to chime in with your comments.

[Gregs///M]

Looking at your started threads, you have not contributed to this community other than offering your services.

You say not to trust the internet, but you offered $5 to anyone who could give you CTS values over the internet.

You said don't trust FF, yet anyone who has been here knows my posts always are about helping others.

Do you even own an e30?

I don't start threads to help people (sometimes I do) but I comment on QUESTIONS people asking in various sections such as car audio, general technical, M20, etc. You can search the thousands of threads from bimmerforums (member since 2006.)

I asked specifically for MEASURED values. I own an E30 and E46 M3. I've also owned an E28, and E34. I've professionally worked on several hundreds of BMW's across all chassis'.

[noid]

Please see post #31 and #34 for why an oscilloscope must be used. I don't mess up anything, I repair damaged AFM or AFM that are no longer providing accurate electrical feedback. I'm not checking if I messed up anything, I am merely verifying the AFM is ok for use in a car. If you see no value in having your AFM validated before being sent to you, that sucks for you.




Cheaper, maybe. Better, maybe. Perhaps you should get into AFM rebuilds and give your services and time for free. Help out the community brother! Go for it.



The parts are not worn except the landing pads of the electrical contacts. You do not need to replace the wiper arm, or electrical contacts. They just need cleaning and adjusting. You don't seem to get that. Replacing them is will achieve no more than cleaning them, except the costs will rise for the customer.

I do not just simply bent the wiper arm. Please see post #33 or my thread on AFM rebuild for the 6 steps used to refurbish my AFM's.






I don't believe Bosch offers rebuild services on AFM's. You would have to buy a new one. My Fuel Injection AFM is within spec, yes I trust them, and my customers have verified my results.



FI corp has been around providing quality services for the Bay Area for decades. If you don't trust specialized business like them, I'm sorry for you.



ForcedFirebird did provide inaccurate information and admitted it on this thread. This is irrefutable proof he was wrong, by personal admitting it. My posts are not hersay, I don't acquire my information through other people or by guessing. If you feel bentley manual specifications and actual oscilloscope measurements are inferior, then something is wrong with you.

I acquire actual real measurements using specialized quality electrical testing tools and reference those vs. Bentley manual specifications. To say my measurements, which I've posted in this thread, are inferior only makes you look bad.

If your going to bash by electrical expertise, then you should also have the professional electrical experience and knowledge to support your claims. Perhaps you should involve your daddy if you really have that much of a gripe against my research.

Before we go any further, I do help out the community for free. Please see the thread titled "Offering free (yes free) garage, tools and help at my place in North York/Toronto" on maxbimmer. I also provide aftermarket parts, and I attempt to beat any publicly advertised price anywhere. Lets not forget I have also provided members here euro engines for a price that was far far lower then any competitor. I also run a website specifically to provide other enthusiasts free information. I have also been here since 2008. Do not talk to me about helping out the community.

I can see your argumentation structure is limited. For some unfounded reason you continue to parade your ability to use and understand oscilloscopes. Please see beyond the oscilloscope and address the real concerns. The problem is not your ABILITY to use an oscilloscope or to copy the reference points of another unit. I am not sure how I can simplify this any more for you, I feel as though I am spoon feeding now:

1. Any rebuild facility will have an oscilloscope.
2. An oscilloscope is not required if done at home, because it is a validating device, and nothing more.
3. It should be a cheaper service
4. It can be rebuilt better
5. Bending the arm up or down will make it travel a different distance because the surface is in an oval shape
6. Rebuilt Bosch unit - 0 986 280 003 New Bosch unit - 0 280 202 082
7. FI corp is a company that started in the late 70's in a guys garage and now employees 30 employees, it hardly has the scope or resources to play with the big guys. Especially Bosch.
8. Your research and reference points are based off a unit that has also had its arm bent, therefore your copying not researching. You do not have a new Bosch unit to reference, thus making you use hersay from FI corp.
9. You are a technician not an engineer. You lack the scope, and education to properly rebuild the unit. Lets not forget that I am NOT saying that you are not competent in what you advertise. You are. 'Properly' does not refer to following what you advertise rather as to the extent of not having the connections to gain factory specs, parts, nor equipment that Bosch would have. There is a possibility that a large company would have enough presence to strike a deal to use Bosch' proprietary information and be able to afford equipment and be able to reman a new board. Hence this thread and the desire to see how other units are rebuild.

Guess what? I am neither a technician nor an engineer (albeit I did take electrical engineering classes in secondary school :rofl:) . Do you see me rebuilding AFM's? No. Do you see me challenging your knowledge in using an oscilloscope? No. Do you see me questioning if you are able to preform this refurb? No. Did I ever say your customers arent happy? No. Did I say I can appreciate that people see value in your service? Yes.

Get your shit straight man, I am not and NEVER was questioning your ability to preform a bending of the arm and a verification. You are heavily confused as to what I am challenging you on. I am not sure if that is just you ignoring what I am saying, or just not understanding what I am saying.

For all we know BWD buys up genuine Bosch rebuilt units in bulk and resells them. So many possibilities. Could also be a unit that is rusted, bent, water damaged, or has a Chinese board.

No one is calling your service bad. There is just a desire to find out if other companies do it better and for cheaper. At the end of the day you aren't going to buy a Bosch unit to reference nor will you test your competition in fear that they may be rebuilding it better and offering their units for cheaper. Thus this conversation is moot.

[ForcedFirebird]

Being pretty much a live and let live kinda guy I may regret jumping in to this.

I do not have the technical expertise you have so have neither the ability nor a reason to question the merits of your position. However, I do have some observations which have stood out in my mind even before this thread came along and since the door has been flung wide open....

1. I notice that every time there's a post relating to anything electrical, you seem to jump in with an ad for your services. While Im a fan of self promotion I think there is a time and place for it (as well as rules) and that it gets old.

2. is that I see a pattern of you knocking everyone either because they don't know what they are doing, do not live up to your standards etc etc. Each to his own but it has always been my belief that speaking well of what you do and why it makes sense and offers good value is a far more effective way to promote your services rather than putting down the competition.

Again, I am not here to get in to a technical debate (nor any debate) but to say that while you may be the most competent repair car around, you could work on your marketing and diplomacy skills a bit and maybe have better results.

This is just my opinion and others may or may not share it..but you asked...we now return control of your TV to you

If this was Facebook, totally like this comment.

[jeffnhiscars]

Being pretty much a live and let live kinda guy I may regret jumping in to this.

I do not have the technical expertise you have so have neither the ability nor a reason to question the merits of your position. However, I do have some observations which have stood out in my mind even before this thread came along and since the door has been flung wide open....

1. I notice that every time there's a post relating to anything electrical, you seem to jump in with an ad for your services. While Im a fan of self promotion I think there is a time and place for it (as well as rules) and that it gets old.

2. is that I see a pattern of you knocking everyone either because they don't know what they are doing, do not live up to your standards etc etc. Each to his own but it has always been my belief that speaking well of what you do and why it makes sense and offers good value is a far more effective way to promote your services rather than putting down the competition.

Again, I am not here to get in to a technical debate (nor any debate) but to say that while you may be the most competent repair car around, you could work on your marketing and diplomacy skills a bit and maybe have better results.

This is just my opinion and others may or may not share it..but you asked...we now return control of your TV to you

[ForcedFirebird]

I've personally taken home a refurbished AFM from Greg and have seen him test the actual unit and compare it to the a defective AFM. He knows what he's doing and obviously what he's talking about and I would trust his work and knowledge. I'd definitely acquire his services again.

Not questioning he can verify if your AFM is working. Selling "refurbished" AFM's with a bent wiper to contact a fresh part of the track is another story.

[ForcedFirebird]

Looking at your started threads, you have not contributed to this community other than offering your services.

You say not to trust the internet, but you offered $5 to anyone who could give you CTS values over the internet.

You said don't trust FF, yet anyone who has been here knows my posts always are about helping others.

Do you even own an e30?

[bernzpeed]

I've personally taken home a refurbished AFM from Greg and have seen him test the actual unit and compare it to the a defective AFM. He knows what he's doing and obviously what he's talking about and I would trust his work and knowledge. I'd definitely acquire his services again.

[Gregs///M]

Do any other r3v members share Noid's and ForcedFirebird's opinion against my AFM refurbishing services? Anyone else feel my research and results are inaccurate, inferior or false in any way?

If so I'd love to hear it from someone OTHER than Noid or ForcedFirebird.

[Gregs///M]

I never once mentioned a DMM. What I said was that this "rebuild" only provides proof that you did not mess up your customers unit, after bending the arm. The actual use of the oscilloscope does not make or assist the AFM is preforming any better or worse. If someone did the same thing you are doing at home, their rebuild would be no better or no worse just because they didn't use an oscilloscope. It a great device, for validating, but is it a tool for actually changing anything? No it is not.

Please see post #31 and #34 for why an oscilloscope must be used. I don't mess up anything, I repair damaged AFM or AFM that are no longer providing accurate electrical feedback. I'm not checking if I messed up anything, I am merely verifying the AFM is ok for use in a car. If you see no value in having your AFM validated before being sent to you, that sucks for you.

Again, I never questioned if your final product worked. Rather if it could be rebuild better, and if it should be done cheaper (my opinion I accept that you have your own, there is nothing wrong with that).

Cheaper, maybe. Better, maybe. Perhaps you should get into AFM rebuilds and give your services and time for free. Help out the community brother! Go for it.

The verification part is the most important step for you, because it provides an empirical way to show that you have actually done something (albeit only bent an arm) and most importantly that you aren't sending back a unit that does not work. I would argue that the most import part are the parts within.

The parts are not worn except the landing pads of the electrical contacts. You do not need to replace the wiper arm, or electrical contacts. They just need cleaning and adjusting. You don't seem to get that. Replacing them is will achieve no more than cleaning them, except the costs will rise for the customer.

I do not just simply bent the wiper arm. Please see post #33 or my thread on AFM rebuild for the 6 steps used to refurbish my AFM's.

Bosch has been around longer then any human being that is currently alive, what is your point? If I follow your logic because Bosch is older they must have a better unit. Which is odd because I thought they has the best unit because they are the ones who created it. On either count, if logic follows you are working with an inferior unit. I advice you to follow your own logic and get the best unit to reference off of.

I don't believe Bosch offers rebuild services on AFM's. You would have to buy a new one. My Fuel Injection AFM is within spec, yes I trust them, and my customers have verified my results.

Hersay doesn't work in court nor does it work here, just because you THINK fuel injection corp reference directly from OEM BMW Specs does not mean they actually do, or even that they are able to conform to specs. Perhaps they conform to what they envision are their acceptable specs. Perhaps Bosch and BMW both told Fuel injection corp to shove it (likely case) and they dont have the OEM specs. Perhaps it is most profitable (at the expensive of the customer) to only bend the arm, rather then do a full and proper rebuild. Perhaps they are wrong.

FI corp has been around providing quality services for the Bay Area for decades. If you don't trust specialized business like them, I'm sorry for you.

It is funny that you rail on ForcedFirebird for providing inaccurate information (whether true or not). Yet you are riddled with hersay, inferior reference measurements, and units.

ForcedFirebird did provide inaccurate information and admitted it on this thread. This is irrefutable proof he was wrong, by personal admitting it. My posts are not hersay, I don't acquire my information through other people or by guessing. If you feel bentley manual specifications and actual oscilloscope measurements are inferior, then something is wrong with you.

I acquire actual real measurements using specialized quality electrical testing tools and reference those vs. Bentley manual specifications. To say my measurements, which I've posted in this thread, are inferior only makes you look bad.

If your going to bash by electrical expertise, then you should also have the professional electrical experience and knowledge to support your claims. Perhaps you should involve your daddy if you really have that much of a gripe against my research.