The 5 lug swap truth thread!!!!!!!!!!

[mikeedler]

I want to start a thread where the real truth is stated on e36 5 lug swap crap.


let it out here!

[e304me]

its a half ass poor geometry way of doing it

[mikeedler]

I have been driving my 5 lug swap car for a few weeks now .....
front-- e36 coilovers (raceland)
non M brakes
97 &up control arms
E30 M3 lollipops
E36 steeringrack


wheels are 17x8 style 5 BBS e34 fittment ET 20 somrthin.



after rolling the hell out of the fenders front and rear, smashing the firewall in with a 15 lb. sledgehammer the front doesnt really rub too much anymore..... I understand the offset is wrong- should be et 40 or so.

so now to the FACTS..

at around 140 kmh the car is so loose due to the lack of caster I have to drive with my fingertips in curves. At 180 and above even in a straight line the car is so loose I am scared to go any faster.




end statement.... DO NOT DO IT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! the suspension geometry is so off the car will feel like crap unless its just a cruiser not planned to drive over 40 mph.


ohh, btw I am a sevice tech at a dealer over here in Germany and have had the car on our less than 1 year old rack a few times

[Eric]

ohh, btw I am a sevice tech at a dealer over here in Germany and have had the car on our less than 1 year old rack a few times

Mike - what are your alignment specs?

[mikeedler]

I didn't even print them out the last few times ( was only really playing with the toe). the caster wasnt coming out all that wrong on paper, but the car feel like crap and you can def. see the wheel is sitting too far to the rear of the wheelwell. I will have to see if I can find the old printout I had from last year.

[etxxz]

i've taken my e30 at past the last speedometer mark doing around 162mph and it drove straight as an arrow.

setup. (apart from s52)
e36 m3 spindles, brakes etc, CA, inner/outer tie rods & steering rack.
rear 318ti
suspension e30 koni's inside e36 housing. cosmo coilovers (8/10 kg/mm).
e30 sways, e36 sway bar linkages up front.
Wheels DSI and DSII's 17x7.5? et41? Fronts have a 15mm spacer.

Even on my track 245/45-17 NT-01's i don't rub at full lock. The trick was the spacer. Check your alignment.

I do admit, without the spacer, rubbing is unacceptable. So this puts my offset at what, +26?

would i do this again. hell no. although i got my parts for dirt cheap, i should have staid 4-lug, max 15" wheels. bbk on the front. track compount F&R. valve bias (probably to the front line), and that's it. saved lots and lots of time and trouble and customization, welding, cutting sweating, cursing and frankeinsteining my suspension.

[samiam3356]

If your going e36m stuff, then high offset is a must IMO

If at all possible wait for e30m3 components

[psyber_0ptix]

I didn't even print them out the last few times ( was only really playing with the toe). the caster wasnt coming out all that wrong on paper, but the car feel like crap and you can def. see the wheel is sitting too far to the rear of the wheelwell. I will have to see if I can find the old printout I had from last year.

you should be using the e36m3 knuckle/radträger this with the 96+ arms correct wheel position and the caster should be fine. The non M has slightly different geometry.



I'm using:

- e36 M3 TC Klein dual adjustable front struts
- Bilstein Sports rear struts
- 60mm I.D. x 150mm @ 450# front spring
- 2.5” I.D. x 5” @ 650# rear spring
- e36 318ti rear trailing arm, calipers, hubs, spindles, rotors, pads
- e32 735i 25mm master cylinder
- e21 320i brake booster
- e36 M3 Front Brakes
- '97 e36 M3 front control arms
- e30 m3 offset bushings
- Suspension Techniques Sway Bars 22mm (f)/19mm (r)
- e30 m3 front endlinks
- Ground Control rear pirch

my wheels are 16x8 et23 summer and 16x7 et20 for winter.

Mine drives straight, with great feedback and no problems. Unfortunately my alignment print is back home in the states and I do not have access to them until I return.



The only disadvantage I see is that because the e36 M3 rotors introduce a 21% rotor diameter increase while the 318ti only offers a 5.4% diameter increase. The front piston bore increases 25% using the e36M3 calipers (48mmstock -> 60mm) while the rear bore on 318ti offers only 6% increase (32mm e30 -> 34mm). Smaller rear bore means higher pressure but less clamping force....setup is even more front bias.

These brakes are severely unbalanced and it is increasingly front bias. While the front does the most braking, it is important to have a balanced brake setup (which is obviously dependent on your suspension as well) but stock balance is a good reference point. The only way to do e36m3 stuff properly is with M-coupe/roadster rears or to build an adapter to accommodate said 312mm rear rotor/40mm bore rear calipers. Unbalanced brakes can actually increase stopping distances....which kinda defeats the purpose.

Another disadvantage to e36 m3 vs e30 m3 hardware is unsprung weight. The e36 M3 stuff is quite heavy.

Front Rotor Weight (lbs) 16.687 (15.89 for OEM Euro 2pc)

Rear Rotor Weight (lbs) 14.065

Front Caliper Weight (lbs) 7.178

Rear Caliper Weight (lbs) 4.608

Front Carrier Weight (lbs) 3.336

Rear Carrier Weight (lbs) 1.903

(incomplete values)
Unsprung weight FA per corner:
E36 M3 = 27.21 lbs (26.413 with Evo rotors)

Unsprung weight RA per corner:
E36 M3 = 20.57 lbs

thats not even including the hubs and such...but yea. I can try to grab the weights for the e30 m3 stuff when I get back to work.



Cliffnotes: E36M3 can definitely be made to work, if balanced with the Mcoupe/MRoadster rears. If using Ti, then probably actually harming your brake balance more than benefit. if you can find e30 m3 stuff, then that would be another lighter alternative which will allow you to run 15" and lower unsprung mass. Whether or not a particular upgrade is worth it is totally subjective and up to the end user. To each their own. Would I do it again? Maybe, but i'd also consider a balanced kit from Massive to get true benefits of a large rotor upgrade. I just didn't want to run larger than 16" and I got ~my~ brakes for relatively cheap. Will be upgrading rears to Z3 M once I get back stateside.

[DTM190]

2011 and still no 100% definitive combo, so glad i have E30M3,

sub'd, interested to see what comes out of this thread

[etxxz]

2011 and still no 100% definitive combo, so glad i have E30M3,

sub'd, interested to see what comes out of this thread

what do you mean?? there's a thousand ways to skin a cat ;)

[hoveringuy]

I went 5 lug with all of the "proper" e36 M3 stuff. It was better in some ways and worse in others.

I switched back to 4 lugs with GC coilovers and now it's much more better!

Having had both on the same car I prefer the 4 lugs.

[psyber_0ptix]

2011 and still no 100% definitive combo, so glad i have E30M3,

sub'd, interested to see what comes out of this thread

what do you mean?? there's a thousand ways to skin a cat ;)

yea i agree; it's like saying swapping a car with an m50 isn't the way to do it. It all depends on what the driver wants, expects, and is willing to spend. Value is subject to personal interpretation so what might be meaningless for some\, is worth it for others. (like justifying Wilwood/Brembo Calipers on a car that spends its time getting groceries or sitting pretty as a garage queen).

[mikeedler]

i've taken my e30 at past the last speedometer mark doing around 162mph and it drove straight as an arrow.

oh, trust me, I have maxed out the speedo on my car on the autobahn a few times, just saying it does NOT feel nearly as stable as it should. the car drives straight and very nicely in town, just at higher speeds of 60+mph it is not correct.


I am using the later e36 control arms with the E30 M3 offset lollipops.

[mikeedler]

dug out the very first allignment specs sheet.
I forgot to add in my orig. post-- I also have an assload of washers on the lower bolts of the strut tube to give the car a better amount of camber.

here is what I have........


L/F camber -0°48´ R/F -0°54´
toe 0°06´ 0°06´


L/R camber -1°54´ R/R -2°18´
toe (crapy but cant do anything 0°12´ -0°18´


and the F**King caster isnt on the crappy sheet, I will stick it on there next week again and get that.

[rkettner]

this is my e30 5 lug with all e36m3 components:


buy these off me and adjust your caster a bit more?