Camber Plates: Vorshlag vs GC

[JGood]

Great design. It would be great if this design (flat surface) was used on e30 camber plates to allow full camber and caster settings to be used.

I guess that would be at the expense of the stack height? I think I'd rather be a bit higher and have the extra room to move around...

[Massive Lee]

It would indeed be at the expense of some stack height. No more than 1/4" extra if using steel or stainless. But it would be so much more practical. Wait two months to see my interation. Still trying to solve other common problems. But that's just another project that might never make it to the end. Got boxes full of projects...

[Fair!]

Great design. It would be great if this design (flat surface) was used on e30 camber plates to allow full camber and caster settings to be used.

Yes, we've heard this request from about two or three E30 racers. We would need to completely redesign our E30 plates from the ground up to work this way, and the cost would go from our current $275 price to the $339 price of our E36 (shown above) or E46 versions - plus perches. As I've mentioned elsewhere, we've seen much more price sensitivity in the E30 market and something like the E36 design above would only appeal to a very very small segment of the E30 world. Since it wouldn't make sense to stock both versions we'd very likely lose more customers than the handful we'd gain.

edit: the E30 already has limited suspension travel up front, so adding stack-up height to the camber plates is an especially bad idea on these cars.

Still, there's more to it than pricing pressure - we race an E30 ourselves and if we thought these cars needed a hair more camber at the expense of stack-up and design time and a higher cost, we'd do it. But the testing we've done seems to prove out that the camber limits of the current design work well for 90-95% of E30 racers out there. To sell another 2 sets of plates a year and raise the prices of all of our E30 plates to justify it? We just don't think that would work for our customers.

Sorry for the tangent. Just trying to explain why we make the E30 plates the way we do...


Our 1991 318is autocrosser and track rat... with -4° up front using off the shelf Vorshlag plates. How much more do you need?!

[JGood]

What do you think of these plates?

http://www.carrindustries.com/catalog/new-bmw-adjustable-camber-plate-kit-from-ruff-performance.htm

I guess they are lacking caster adjustment, but overall, would you say it's a decent product? This would be for a budget HPDE'er/autox'er who just needs some additional neg camber to preserve expensive r-comps (I'm only wearing the outside 1" of the tires). But I don't want to buy junk that may break or wear out quickly.

[nando]

honestly - save your money and buy the good stuff. just looking at those, you can see they have a HUGE amount of stack height. who knows what kind of bearings they use either. they aren't even significantly cheaper...

[Van Westervelt]

very good info in here

[CorvallisBMW]

As an FYI, I just had my alignment done with H&R Sports f/r, and the Vorschlag kit installed. At the maximum positive camber settings, I was able to just barely get within factory specs. At full negative, well,

[submwar]

vorshlag camber plates. they will work with stock strut housing?

i mean, you could pair this up with Koni SA's and IE3s without changing perches or needing spring pads?

[Fair!]

vorshlag camber plates. they will work with stock strut housing?

i mean, you could pair this up with Koni SA's and IE3s without changing perches or needing spring pads?

Yes, we have plates on OEM style springs as well as coilovers. We make the perches specific to the strut shaft style/diameters and spring size you are running for a close tolerance fit and noise-free use.


Left: OEM spring perches on Koni strut. Right: 60mm coilover perches on Koni strut. Shown with E36 parts but E30 are similar.

If you go to our website we make it easy to order... just pick the strut you have, the springs you are using, etc. Its all in the options drop downs.

http://www.vorshlag.com/product_info.php?cPath=1_17_35&products_id=29

[Hellabad]

I guess that would be at the expense of the stack height? I think I'd rather be a bit higher and have the extra room to move around...

Ground Control already makes these plates. And they are still shorter than 'the other ones'.

You can adjust the caster and camber to extremes also. Been around a while, but seems to get lost in all the BS.

Jay Morris

[Eric]

Ground Control already makes these plates. And they are still shorter than 'the other ones'.

uh oh....somebody finally told GC about this thread.

You can adjust the caster and camber to extremes also. Been around a while, but seems to get lost in all the BS.

Jay Morris

that plate wont flex with nothing holding it down on one side?

It'd be nice to make a plate that the camber bolts are sunk down into the main plate.

I want to set my camber, then slide the plate forward or aft to adjust my caster. I won't be doing the "dump the camber for the track" deal. once the car is alighned, the plates wont be touched until the next alighnmnet.

right now my GC plates limit the caster movement because of the camber bolts

[Fair!]

Hey, its Jay from GC joining the thread. Welcome.

Just wanted to post a picture of our shop E30 at last weekend's SCCA Divisional event at Texas Motor Speedway. We played with camber settings to clear up some understeer on Day 1 we were experiencing. Went from -3.8° to -4.3° (which was the max for this car) up front and the both drivers dropped 1 second on a 60 second course. This alignment was achieved using our off-the-shelf Vorshlag E30 plates and AST 4100 front struts with 60mm springs. This picture is with the car fully loaded in a corner data logging 1.15g lateral on shaved 140 treadwear 205mm Bridgestone RE01Rs (this class is limited to 140 treadwear or higher, with 225mm max width).



In our experience the springs are the biggest limiting factor for camber - if you have OEM springs they will contact the strut tower long before the top of the strut shaft runs into the strut tower opening up top. With coilovers using 2.5" or 60mm springs, this isn't a concern, so the more travel you can get up top the better. Lower ride heights also get more negative camber at all settings. Our car is fairly low, 12.3" from center of wheel to fender lip, using 1" shortened strut housings and a 6" long coilover spring. So with these coilovers we are seeing a maximum -4.3° of camber and +9° caster using our plates.

Can another plate design possibly get more than that? Sure, its possible. Do you need more than that much camber? I don't know, it's debatable, but our testing shows the best cornering power between -3 to -4° in most BMWs. One more thnig, with our shorter single-row sealed radial bearing perches you get 5mm less stack-up height than with our standard double row bearings. This works for race set-ups that are using coilovers (like our car has), but is not made for OEM perches (which themselves are pretty tall).

Cheers,

[Hellabad]

Hey, its Jay from GC joining the thread. Welcome.

yeah, sucks actually, I really have a full plate besides this.

So with these coilovers we are seeing a maximum -4.3° of camber and +9° caster using our plates.



Cheers,

You cannot move the strut 0.920 *edit*(-0.920 is the range of travel, 0.730 is distance to the center) over from the center of the strut tower, on an e30 with unbent struts, and get 4.3.

Notwithstanding, lots of people run more than 4.3 with great success, especially road racing, but also some parking lot stuff too.

Mathematical proof in the next post.


Jay Morris from GC slept at a Holiday Inn

[Hellabad]

that plate wont flex with nothing holding it down on one side?

There is plenty of strength and planty of bolts, I just want to make them work for it, so I'm not going to post complete pictures.

right now my GC plates limit the caster movement because of the camber bolts

That is always the way it has been , because I first designed that plate in 1992 or 3, and the IT rules allowed coilovers but Street Prepared didnt.

So the camber plates have always necessitated cutting as allowed by the rules to get max adjustment. As mentioned, there is a height penalty, but new advances in high-tensile wire and barrel spring design allow shorter springs while retaining adequate suspension travel. So now we can make a slightly thiscker plate, without worrying as much about coilbind.

Jay

[Hellabad]

For those of you who don't want to go measure, or those of you who do:

The length from the center of the lower ball joint to the camber plate pivot is 23.0 inches (on an e30 with 12" CL to fender). This is essentially how long the front strut is. Lets make this the hypotenuse of a right triangle. The short side of the triangle is 0.730 from center of hole to max inboard, on the camber plate referenced above.


Here is the link to an online calculator:

http://www.easycalculation.com/trigonometry/triangle-angles.php

Therefore, an e30 with 4.3 degrees at max negative, will be
Use the numbers I have provided, or measure your own.

Long side, hypotenuse, the length of the strut, is 23 on my 1987 325is. The movement of the camber plate is 0.730, which is the "short side". The online calculator makes your HP35 obsolete as it figures out the sine for you.

My answer is 1.8199 degrees (rounded to 1.8-degrees). This is how many degrees of camber, a 23 inch long strut will gain (or lose) when moved 0.730 inches. You can try your own measurements.

Therefore, when sliding the strut back toward positive to the center of the hole, what should the camber be?

-4.3, sliding to the center +1.8 degrees means that in the center of the strut tower the camber will be -2.5.

Lots of guys here have their e30 lowered to 12 inches from the center of the Roundel to the fender lip, but dont have camber plates. Are they all running around with -2.5 degrees negative on their daily commute? I don't think so. Otherwise there would be a clamor for camber plates that TOOK AWAY all that negative camber.

Photos soon....