Electric Classic Cars

[u3b3rg33k]

Enjoy adding yet another layer of record keeping and tax paying if this passes your states houses. It may not end up saving you as much as you think it will. Pay up too a 1.43 cents a mile so you may have to keep track and proof of paid road use taxes to the state in your car to the tune of 172 bucks a year for the average 12k miles traveled. Its going to cost you about 3 times more in taxes than if you drive gas, as the state rate on gas is 18 cents a gallon or a .5 cents a mile on gas powered rabbit getting 32mpg. You will save money yes, but it may not be all honeysuckle and dew drops either, especially if you dont have proof of taxes paid and log of miles driven, ask the WVO/Home brew Bio diesel guys that have gotten poked .

http://legiscan.com/gaits/view/358635

1. "Electric vehicle" means a vehicle that is propelled by a motor that is powered by electrical energy from rechargeable batteries or another source on the vehicle or from an external source in, on or above the street and that Is not capable of being powered by motor vehicle fuel or use fuel.

To me that reads range extender running on pump (taxed) fuel. i.e. if you have a permanently installed range extender that runs on taxable fuel, evil tax rule does not apply.

Seems easy enough to work around... the most important word quoted being and. might even be able to weasel your way into having it be a gas/diesel standby generator that you could use, but I'd ask a lawyer either way. as for now it does not apply to me.

My question would be how does this affect people that buy a zero ZF9 or a leaf? does the dealer/mfg bear any responsibility for informing you / providing a mechanism for figuring it out? If not it would seem to me to be truck-driver-logbook style paperwork, which would suck bigtime.

[Threehz]

That bill is only under consideration currently, no?

Even with that added fee, the cost of electricity vs gasoline is negligible. In Tucson, 12,000 miles of driving in an average EV car will range from about $200 to $300 (add in solar power/regenerative breaking and costs decrease). Driving in a 32 MPG car (don't know where you found a 32 MPG in the city gasoline Rabbit) will cost $1312.50 with gas at only $3.50 per gallon.

$1312.50 + $67.50 ($0.18 Gas Tax) = $1380.00 per year (12k miles)

$300 + $171.60 ($0.0143 Per Mile Tax) = $471.60 per year (12k miles)

So EV costs ~1/3 in fuel & related tax per year than a 32 MPG car.

Good to know as I've been debating how much driving electric actually would save and this made me do my homework.

[Fusion]

Yes but it will take 10+ years to pay off the extra needed expense, which is the battery life depending or circumstances.
So it basically comes down to enthusiasm (and/or ecology).

[shoup]

Yes but it will take 10+ years to pay off the extra needed expense, which is the battery life depending or circumstances.
So it basically comes down to enthusiasm (and/or ecology).

I agree. Going electric is not going to save you much money, if any at all. You are essentially buying your fuel up front (batteries) because they will need to be replaced after X number of years depending on what type you get (even lithium ion). There also is not a large amount of data showing how long the lithium ion batteries are going to last in EV conversion applications.

[u3b3rg33k]

I agree. Going electric is not going to save you much money, if any at all. You are essentially buying your fuel up front (batteries) because they will need to be replaced after X number of years depending on what type you get (even lithium ion). There also is not a large amount of data showing how long the lithium ion batteries are going to last in EV conversion applications.

Uhm what? there's plenty of data out there on how long rechargeable lithium batteries last under different usage patterns. there's nothing magical about EV conversions.

[Threehz]

What extra expense?

$15,000 - $20,000 dollars is what you'll pay for the cheapest new car on the market, so you're at no disadvantage cost-wise. Buying an equivalent new electric vehicle starts at upwards of $30,000--incentives included.

There is a actually pretty large amounts of data showing that lithium ion batteries will last 10+ years in high-demand EV applications. Degradation is the greatest concern.

In fact, in an ideal world for person A driving an ICE car that averages 32 MPG and gas somehow stays at $3.50 per gallon (situation in my post above), and the worst case scenario for person B driving a regular electric conversion (situation in my post above), person B will still save ~$9,000 in 10 years over person A.

If saving $9,000 is a bad scenario, I don't mind. That pays for batteries and than some, not to mention the money saved avoiding oil changes, spark plugs, air filters, all the engine control parts, water pump, alternator, catalytic converter, etc...

I also plan to introduce solar power to my home to reduce or completely eliminate fuel costs for the electric conversion.

Enthusiasm, independence and ecological awareness definitely play their roles, but economy plays its own part in the equation. Fuel costs will only see a net rise over time. Increasing demand and decreasing supplies makes that a guarantee.

[lcoleman]

Uhm what? there's plenty of data out there on how long rechargeable lithium batteries last under different usage patterns. there's nothing magical about EV conversions.

It's laboratory data, though. LiFePO4 hasn't really even been around long enough to say the average working lifespan on a big EV pack...5 years, 10 years, maybe? So many variables: heat, charge/discharge rates, depth of discharge, # of cycles, etc. I think 10 years will turn out to be best-case, honestly.

Aiming for 40 mile range will help you a lot. What voltage will you be running at?

[pandaboo911]

vw bug makes a great car to convert

[Q5Quint]

I am about to get into electrics big time~ already have a vw van project, and a vw bug project in the works complete with motors and adapter plates- everything except batteries. Have built some little electrc bikes, had a friend buid a trike and ride across the state, and a kid in my class built a a/c motorcycle for his electronics class and keeps winning awards.

On Tax:

The road tax issue is moot~ there was a veggie oil/biodiesel guy they tried to bust at a Nascar race here in NC... our farming community is pretty strong so if you want to tell people they cant grow their own fuel that is cool but you wont get elected next year. They tried to fine him in a similar way to a 18wheeler using off-road diesel (dyed red and not taxed). If you think of how few people actually use electrics it will cost more than you will get enforcing the policy.

The real long term issue here is that
a) if we are using a 50 cents per gallon tax on gas to pay for roads
b) people are not using as much gas bc of economy and more efficient cars
then c) we dont have as much money to take care of the roads so where do we tax to keep finding at stable levels?

Easy way to tax electric vehicles: put a surcharge on electricity sales over the 'normal' amount. You are now taxing electric cars and really inefficient houses which is great since it will keep people from using too much.


On EV/classics:

I love classic cars and electric motors. The problem here is physics. It takes x amount of energy to move something that weighs x. When we were building electric bikes we were trying to figure out what size motor to use. Some research lead to the discovery that Lance Armstrong can sustain about 400 watts for several hours.... up greatly from a average personsl 100 watts. So if I use a 400 watt motor on my bicycle then I technically have lance armstrong power plus my own power. One Lance-Power is enough for a bicycle since if you use a 1000w motor aka 2.5 Lance-Power then your bike will go 45+mph and is scary as fck with those little pinchy rim brakes.

Now scale up a power to weight ratio for lance-power. My bike plus batteries and motor + me weighs about 200ish lbs. I can drive around for about 15 miles on about $80 of lead acid batteries at 35mph with barely a pedal. Acceleration is as good or better than me pedaling. With 400 watts of geared-down motor (about 1/2 a horsepower) this is a great little scooter.... but I have a power to weight ratio of like 400lbs per hp.

Corvette zo6 has a power-to-weight ratio of 6.3 pounds per horsepower. 1 Horsepower is 750 watts (a lance is about 1/2 a horsepower). If you want your classic car to be electric corvette fast you need a shitton of watts. This is for 0-60 in 3.6 seconds fast.

Luckily ev motors make shittons of torque before the redline so you can get away with a much lower peak hp and the car will still have more total torque available for acceleration. Like 1/3 to 1/2 the peak size. So if the vette has a 500hp motor.... you will probably want a 250hp electric motor. 250hpX750 = 187,500 watts. Holy balls that is a lot. Now lets talk voltage. Say you are a badass and running at 144 volts. 187,500/144 volts means... jesus h christ 1300 amps! Thats cool because the zilla controllers put out about 2k amps.....

Not actually that bad- the vw van we expect to pull about 200amps just cruising at 55 down the highway based of some other ev builds. You can lower amps by upping voltage to stupid high amounts... but what all those numbers were really about is how fast you are sucking energy from somewhere.... be it chemical from gas or from stored in a battery. This is basic physics crap. A gallon of gas stores a lot of watts, a lot more than a gallon of lead-acid battery.... but it is all 100% calculable and sizable.

http://www.evalbum.com/

I think if I was going to build an ev I would use a older lighter classic car~ under 2000 lbs... then find a honda insight for 2k bucks to kick the body off of. You get a ev+hybrid and possibly only need to buy new batteries. I can buy a brand new car for as much as the nice ev components cost.... until they are mass produced by all the car manufactures it will be a little out of most folks hands. 20-25k for a sick ev engine/battery setup seems a bit high but thats also why the leaf costs 40k. If I went and bought a brand spanking new ls9 v8 straight from chevy how much do you think that would cost?

The highschool in the county over builds and races EVs~ they have a miata and a s-10. My old highschool built a ev-saturn. If the highschoolers can do it why cant us smart car nuts figure it out?

[Threehz]

It's laboratory data, though. LiFePO4 hasn't really even been around long enough to say the average working lifespan on a big EV pack...5 years, 10 years, maybe? So many variables: heat, charge/discharge rates, depth of discharge, # of cycles, etc. I think 10 years will turn out to be best-case, honestly.

Aiming for 40 mile range will help you a lot. What voltage will you be running at?

I'm pretty sure lithium ion batteries have been around since the 70's when EVs were also becoming popular.

Voltage isn't determined yet, but I plan on going higher voltage as it is more efficient. I have yet to choose a motor and controller.

Taxing electricity is an awesome idea, phase out inefficiency in a way that drivers people like no other: money.

As for my choice in classics/old cars... There are a few reasons. I want to drive classic/old cars for the rest of my life, I love the feel, the looks, the smells. They are also generally much lighter than newer vehicles, less complicated, and related parts are much cheaper.

Personally, I haven't found a vehicle yet that is lighter than the Mk1 Rabbit GTI at ~1750lbs it is actually lighter than the Beetle. The Honda insight is much heavier than the GTI and heavier than the Beetle.

Q5Quint, my goal here is by no means performance, although most controllers make bumping up performance easy as the flip of a switch if you are so inclined and your related components are capable.

Good information guys.

[Fusion]

My friend's car



Specs:
Car is factory 2000 Peugeot 106 Electric, bought cheap with dead batteries and some 20K miles
11kW Siemens motor, 132V
LiFePo4 packs (can't recall amount or weight), 14kWh good for about 65mi

The car drives and feels like a 55kW diesel, except flat out from 0. You can really feel the extra weight, these cars are otherwise very light.
Real driving conditions lead to about 50 mile range.
The motor died about a month ago and has been fixed.
Battery management, packs, chargers and car has amounted to about $17K, the car itself was only $2.5K

[der affe]

A 1965 bug weighs in at between 1600-1720lbs depending on your source

A late model std bug (1972) weighs in at 1840lbs.

A 1974 super beetle weighs in at 2084.

[TobyB]

I was going to do an electric 2002. But stick the motor in the back seat,
trasaxle instead of diff, and stuff a bunch of lead into it.

Damn, that's a lot of work into a tincan that some fat idiot in a sooper truck can
total just by backing into it in the parking lot.

Might try it on an E30 someday, though- slightly beefier, a bit bigger, better bumpers...
...hardly any heavier.

I bet I end up with an E46 if it ever happens!

And no, you're stuck with lead- acid unless you spend a LOT.
The reason's a good excercise in how this country deserves all that's about to happen to it....

t

[Q5Quint]

I drive maybe 5 miles a day~ live in town and could walk/ride my bike the mile or so to work and to the store. It just sucks when it is 0 degrees outside our raining.

I would like to try one of the stupid cheap forklift conversions first since my speed is limited to 35mph in town~ http://forkenswift.com/

You can get away with a lot and make them crazy cheap but once you start going for corvette performance you end up spending as much as a normal vette would cost anyway.

I am thinking of a classy volksrod vert for appeal~ and if I need to stick a small generator under the front hood there is room. Lead should be fine and cheap for a short 15 mile range. You are just building a fancy golf cart after all.



This is a kid that went to school with me that builds crazy r/c motor trikes.... scary fast going 60mph on a tadpole trike. They have some vids of them shooting up pikes peak .... worth a watch for sure. He has a good line on lithium batteries too. They smoked all the other e-bikes. http://www.ffrtrikes.com/

[u3b3rg33k]

Might try it on an E30 someday, though- slightly beefier, a bit bigger, better bumpers...

But just for looks, even if you hit/something hits you, you'll never use them

Specs:
Car is factory 2000 Peugeot 106 Electric, bought cheap with dead batteries and some 20K miles
11kW Siemens motor, 132V
LiFePo4 packs (can't recall amount or weight), 14kWh good for about 65mi

The car drives and feels like a 55kW diesel, except flat out from 0. You can really feel the extra weight, these cars are otherwise very light.
Real driving conditions lead to about 50 mile range.
The motor died about a month ago and has been fixed.
Battery management, packs, chargers and car has amounted to about $17K, the car itself was only $2.5K

So basically you have a 70hp VW diesel with a 1 gallon gas tank that costs 14k. This is why I think full electric cars aren't there yet.