wich company lost its way? (jalopnik review)

[sumoashe]

I think the issue thats happening here is there's more than one argument going on here. Well actually these. Form vs function, and also companies being compares to each other that shouldn't be.

Form, (styling, design). Form is subjective, people like different things. You can only judge this against bmw's past models, not another company. Also cant judge form bases on performance or options.

Function, this you can judge against other makers cars. But you have to use equal or as close to equal cars as you can. Cant judge a standard e46 m3 against a porsche gt3 rs. Two completely different animals meant for two different purposes. But you could use the m3 csl against the gt3 rs. Those are similar cars meant for the same purpose. Function is numbers and data, it's facts not judgement.

The third one here seems to be the worst. You cannot judge bmw against porsche or lotus based on the type of car they make. They are not competing for the same customer base for the most part. So do not make the same types of cars. Bmw competes with lexus, mercedes, audi, ect. All makers of sporty executive luxury cars. They just happen to like to race as well, and selling luxury cars lets them do that. Porsche and Lotus make race cars that happen to work well on the road as well and allow the funding of their race program.

And Lotus us more like a morgan, tvr, panoz. Not a porsche size company.

[BlackbirdM3]

I'm sorry to be a prick, but this is pissing me off; what the fuck is an EXAGE. I do fancy the Lotus Exige, it's quite the sports car. But I have no idea what the fuck you are talking about. If you're going to post as a well informed contributor, at least spell the damn name right.

Oops, yeah I misspelled Exige. Ya got me, congratulations.

I'm not saying they should cater to my interests in a car. I'm just saying that few companies do. Lotus is one of them. I didn't like the early Elise, my big feet had no place to go, it also lacked an LSD and had a very vague feel at the wheel. The last generation ones are sweet. I wish more companies would follow their example. I will say I'm not interested in the Evora. The Exige S however fits the bill.

Yes the E30 M3 was never designed to sell millions. It was a purpose built car, and that is exactly why I like it and the reason I own one. When I bought it I could have paid cash for some pretty impressive cars, Porsche 993s, S2000s, an Elise, but no, I went for a 25 year old purpose built detuned race car. After putting 18K miles on it in the past year, all I can say is that its brilliant. Sure, there are a few things I don't like about it, but its all stuff the European versions don't have. No, its not a car for the masses. All I'm saying is that it would be nice to see more cars of this nature.

My other issue that is more or less universal with anything made in the past 10 years, you can't see out the back of the things. Bring back the large rear window and low trunk line. Everything these days has a trunkline that is so high you can't see crap through the rear window. Sure I can see the lifted monster truck that is tailgating me, but the Honda Civic driven by the twit on the phone doesn't sit tall enough to see. Anyone else see an issue with this? I see manufacturers making cars that do everything short of driving themselves (they already parallel park by themselves so its not far off ) This has caused the drivers to be inattentive and clueless relying on the car to get them out of trouble rather than being smart and careful as they should be. People are lazy and will do as little as possible. The so called safety standards are nothing more than a method of creating worse drivers. :down:

I'm done with this rant. You guys have at it.

Will

[sumoashe]

I completely agree the cars have become smarter while the drivers have become dumber. But this not the fault of the auto makers, its what the public has asked for. Mainly us lazy americans. We treat cars as a neccesity instead of the luxury they are. There just another tool to us. We want them to do everything for us cause we're to busy doing a dozen other things than actually driving. Where as in the rest of the world cars are a luxury ítem. You gotta really want one to pay all the extra cash and jump threw all the hoops it takes to get one. So when they drive they do so out of choice versus that just being how you get around.

Why do you think euro cars rarely used to come with cup holders, cause they were a distraction from the driving experiance. It's our thirst for cars and giant economy that has changed the path of auto makers. Even the really crappy stuff is on us because as americans we would rather put up with a shitty made car than not have a car at all.

[sumoashe]

Automakers give us exactly what we ask for as a whole. Not what a small segment asks for.

[Stanley Rockafella]

Why do you think euro cars rarely used to come with cup holders, cause they were a distraction from the driving experiance.

It was actually against the law in Europe to install anything that would distract from driving. Not so much of an "experience" thing per se

[obes]

Everyone else tries to become what BMW used to be while BMW becomes a Joke. BMW absolutely deserves the number one spot. The NEW F10 M5 is an absolute joke.

haha beg to differ..its a beast. stick to your slow e30 lol

[BlackbirdM3]

I completely agree the cars have become smarter while the drivers have become dumber. But this not the fault of the auto makers, its what the public has asked for. Mainly us lazy americans. We treat cars as a neccesity instead of the luxury they are. There just another tool to us. We want them to do everything for us cause we're to busy doing a dozen other things than actually driving. Where as in the rest of the world cars are a luxury ítem. You gotta really want one to pay all the extra cash and jump threw all the hoops it takes to get one. So when they drive they do so out of choice versus that just being how you get around.

Why do you think euro cars rarely used to come with cup holders, cause they were a distraction from the driving experiance. It's our thirst for cars and giant economy that has changed the path of auto makers. Even the really crappy stuff is on us because as americans we would rather put up with a shitty made car than not have a car at all.

I whole heatedly agree. In the US driving is viewed as a right rather than a privilege. Perhaps I should pick up and move to Europe. I'd probably fit in better. ;)

Will

[Todd Black 88]

There were 44 lightweight E36s brought to North America courtesy of a mister Tom Plucinsky of BMW Canada. One of these was never sold.

As for the US version of the E30 M3, yeah it came fully optioned, however the euro models lacked things like power windows, sunroof, A/c, stereo, non reclining seats and others. The weight was 2569Lbs. The Sport EVO was 2650 lbs giving it a power to weight ratio of a hair over 11 per hp. Exactly the car I'd be looking to buy right now. Yes the US version is a fat pig since it grew an extra 300 or so pounds. I'm currently looking into pulling the power windows out of my car because they are unneeded and more of a pain than they are worth. I'll happily take the weight savings. The A/C system is also on the chopping block, it doesn't work, so I might as well pull it all out. I just haven't figured out why it doesn't work. If it needs a new compressor, the whole nine yards is coming out. I've never owned a car with a a/c in the past so it doesn't really bother me that I wouldn't have one in the M3.

The MINI is small by todays standards, but its huge. Hell, my M3 is huge. I'd rather drive a real MINI over the BMW variation any day of the week. A real MINI is small. Yes, I've autoXed a modern MINI and it was a horrible understeering pig of a car, just like all FWD cars. The thing would not turn at neutral throttle, let alone on throttle. Like I said, it might be ok for a grocery getter.

I fit just fine in an Elise/Exage and I'm 6'2 and 190lbs. Hell, I know a 78 year old woman who daily drives her Exage. She also autocrosses it all the time as well. If a nearly 80 year old woman can daily drive one, anyone can.

As for poo-pooing the "enthusiast" based cars, if they looked good, I'd give them a shot. Heck, I'd be interested in a lightweight e36 M3, but since there aren't any that are legal in the US, its not happening. The 1M isn't a bad looking car, its sides are just too tall, the windows too small and the trunk is too short. Its just not visually that attractive. Its almost there, but it has too many "extras" that I don't want as well.

The Toyo-buru thing looks like crap, and is unimpressive. I've been racing against them for months and wouldn't you know it, my mostly stock 25 year old M3 has yet to be beaten by one even when I'm on street tires and they are on R-compounds. I give them credit for trying to make something cool, but they clearly can't design a good looking car (it looks like a toad.) Its cheaply built and designed to be thrashed and thrown away. A total waste of $ if you ask me.

The only point I'm trying to make is that manufacturers have all lost their way. As people have already mentioned, the Exage is gone, the GT3 is gone (at least in the US) They are just building people movers, packing them with "stuff" based around the "Planned obsolescence" idea so it will fall apart and they can sell you new parts for a stupid amount of money. After a year or two of replacing expensive stupid parts that should last 20 + years, you sell the thing and buy another poorly built POS that will do the same thing just after the very short warranty runs out. Its not about building a quality car that lasts, its about making as much money as they can because they built their stuff to be thrown out.

Will

No, just......no
You are talking about the Canada only 94 e36 m3. These were 286hp euro spec cars.
The us e36 m3 ltw had approximately 125 cars made, of which 118 were believed to have been registered.

[CrusherCurtis]

Excellent analysis bro.

I didn't thing what I said needed to be explained by anyway.

"The problem with the auto industry is everyone wants to be BMW" Richard Hammond

Fact. Companies have sold they're souls to make the ultimate driving machine. the best example is Cadillac. They've completely sold out and changed what Cadillac was for 100 years in just 10. Infiniti launches an ipl line and Lexus f sport. Even now, Mercedes that are supposed to be comfortable cruisers are now given athletic qualities. Audi even when so far as to name every competing model one number high than BMW (thing about it). VW's goal with Audi was to take BMW's spot and there doing a damn good job. What really pisses me off is that BMW doesn't even care and it shows when Audi makes a car with a world class leading interior + AWD and its still some how lighter than the comparable RWD BMW!! WTF!! And it gets worst. There's no more Z3 , Z4, m coupes, or Z8's etc. Literally while the competition developed LFA, SLS, and R8, BMW developed 5 series GT, then they followed the crowd and made a 4 door 6 series. The new m5 is the farthest thing from what BMW used to stand for just 10 years ago. Purist spare yourself this next line: Its a BIG 4300 pound Twin Turbo sedan, a far cry from an e39 m5. Sure everyone will want one because its fast, but this is a car everyone makes now. Even Infiniti is working on one now. When the e39 m5 came out it was slap in face of the auto industry, when the Z8 came out it was faster than, a then young, Gallarado around a track. If you think BMW hasn't lost its way your sadly mistaken.

Edit: Oh yeah /Thread