turbo or 24v swap?

[haaken675]

We are on different wave-lengths. I'm talking about a crusty junkyard M52 in unknown shape cobbled together with a few fresh gaskets and slapped into an E30. You end up with a heavier engine, and often its not making as much power as a well-maintained M20. It all comes down to how much effort one takes to do it "right".

Your awesomely-priced engine/transmission finds are enticing, but the numbers you give are by no means a barometer of the general market.
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OP. Give some thought to a built M20 stroker engine with RHD ITB's. Great combo if done properly, and plenty of power to enjoy time off and on the track. The belt conundrum is a fallacy propagated by those who don't believe in proper maintenance.

I was considering building up the the m20, especially with the rhd itb's. I could never find any dyno plots or real numbers showing what kind of power I could make.

[craiggroves91]

In my experience (I was going to build an m20 turbo and then switched to s52 swap), a properly done turbo setup will be much more expensive than a 24v swap.

[SkiFree]

I was considering building up the the m20, especially with the rhd itb's. I could never find any dyno plots or real numbers showing what kind of power I could make.

There was a great thread on the late e30tech website where RHD's were slapped onto the stock M20 engine.

http://www.r3vlimited.com/board/showpost.php?p=4230021&postcount=60

However, John has done some GREAT documentation here.

http://www.r3vlimited.com/board/showthread.php?t=330450&page=12

[haaken675]

There was a great thread on the late e30tech website where RHD's were slapped onto the stock M20 engine.

http://www.r3vlimited.com/board/showpost.php?p=4230021&postcount=60

However, John has done some GREAT documentation here.
http://www.r3vlimited.com/board/show...330450&page=12

Thanks for posting that! If I can make decent power out of an m20, I'm totally open to that, especially since the motor is lighter then a 24v swap.

[e30onBBSs]

boost that bitch and get a real ecu and do it legit

[itsonlygeorge]

M30 swap!

[varg]

In addition to everything said so far, it's worth saying that if you turbo an M20 and make as much power your typical 24V swapped guy makes (most of them are probably making 200whp or less, S50/52 swaps are mostly under 250whp), it's not going to be hard to make it survive track use at all. With a good cooling system and a conservative tune you could run low boost and still have loads of fun on the track, then turn up the boost for big power at the drag strip and such. There's a huge difference between running 8psi of boost and making 230whp and cranking the boost up for 400whp. There's no reason an M20 making that kind of low boost power should be unreliable on the track as long as you don't cheap out on it.

[stonea]

M54's are a PITA compared to swapping a m50/m52, so if you are doing it yourself with limited knowledge, m54 probably isnt the best route.

Its not to bad if you do your research, the hardest part is the wiring and flashing the ECU and theres info out there for the wiring and flashing the ECU. If your still not comfortable with ttempting those two yourself then you could get a harness from Andrew325is and a flash from 328iJunkie. Its really not all that different from a M50/2 swap once you conquer those two hurdles.

[haaken675]

In addition to everything said so far, it's worth saying that if you turbo an M20 and make as much power your typical 24V swapped guy makes (most of them are probably making 200whp or less, S50/52 swaps are mostly under 250whp), it's not going to be hard to make it survive track use at all. With a good cooling system and a conservative tune you could run low boost and still have loads of fun on the track, then turn up the boost for big power at the drag strip and such. There's a huge difference between running 8psi of boost and making 230whp and cranking the boost up for 400whp. There's no reason an M20 making that kind of low boost power should be unreliable on the track as long as you don't cheap out on it.

That was honestly my original thought. Low boost for on the track making 250ish, and it up for the street when i want. IDK, hard decision. Leaning more towards turbo at the moment since i can build it up over time...The hardest part is simply picking the direction at this point. Once i do that and commit to one angle ill just run with whichever one that is...

[craiggroves91]

But we have to be honest with ourselves, a turbo m20 will never be as reliable as an N/A anything. Especially on the track.

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[varg]

But we have to be honest with ourselves, a turbo m20 will never be as reliable as an N/A anything. Especially on the track.

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Not true. Turbocharging doesn't make things less reliable if it's done right. This isn't 1975.

N/A anything

There's plenty of NA garbage that wouldn't last half as long as a low boost turbo M20.

[craiggroves91]

Not true. Turbocharging doesn't make things less reliable if it's done right. This isn't 1975.

It's another component and one more thing that can go wrong. It's going to cost more to build and to maintain. I'm not only talking short term, but long term as well. It's common sense.

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[varg]

It's another component and one more thing that can go wrong. It's going to cost more to build and to maintain. I'm not only talking short term, but long term as well. It's common sense.

A turbocharger has two moving parts. A rotating assembly, and a wastegate. Turbochargers are not inherently unreliable. If you don't neglect them, they will last a long time. This is not 1975.

A bad tune or insufficient cooling will kill a built NA engine, that's not exclusive to turbo stuff, it's just easier to do. If you do it right, it will last!

[craiggroves91]

A turbocharger has two moving parts. A rotating assembly, and a wastegate. Turbochargers are not inherently unreliable. If you don't neglect them, they will last a long time. This is not 1975.

A bad tune or insufficient cooling will kill a built NA engine, that's not exclusive to turbo stuff, it's just easier to do. If you do it right, it will last!

Those parts need to be maintained, lubricated, sealed, and cooled well. It's more stuff. I agree with you that they can be reliable, but going back to what I said originally, never as reliable as NA. You will pay the price long term.

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[varg]

Those parts need to be maintained, lubricated, sealed, and cooled well. It's more stuff. I agree with you that they can be reliable, but going back to what I said originally, never as reliable as NA. You will pay the price long term.

Say you have M20s, both make 200whp. One is turbocharged, one is NA. Both engines are experiencing the same internal stresses, one has a compressor forcing air in and the other has head work and a cam letting more air in. The turbocharger isn't going to miraculously wear out the engine 2x faster because it's there, and the turbo itself can go on and on for 100,000mi or more if you stay on your oil changes and don't do stupid stuff like shut the engine off immediately after beating on it or expose the turbo to surge conditions. Turbochargers are not unreliable. If you satisfy the cooling demands of the engine, it isn't miraculously going to blow up faster than the NA one because there's a turbo hanging off of it. You're judging all turbocharged systems based on shoestring budget and hacked together trash you see on forums - stuff like my car. And even then there are exceptions and reversals to the common anecdotes of turbocharged engines blowing up. While I've beat on my low budget turbo M42 endlessly over the past year, it's still driveable, this summer I saw 2 bone stock M20s die catastrophic deaths. If you take care of it, don't tune it poorly, and cool it well, a turbo engine will last. Especially an understressed one like a 250whp M20. Turbocharger bearings are an additional wear part, sure, but they last a long time if you take care of them, same as the bearings on your crank and rods.