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Hey guys, new to the forum and e30 world. I recently acquired an 89' 325is in zinno and am trying to refresh it and take it to show-worthy condition. I currently have the m20 out and was on the fence as to how to proceed. I'm definitely wanting to make more power over stock whether that means stroking the m20, turboing it, or doing a m50/52 or s50/52 swap. What would you do and why? Obviously this is a matter of opinion, but I'm having a hard time deciding what direction to go in. Id probably take into account the difficulty of the build as I'm new to auto projects of this magnitude but tend to get comfortable and learn quickly. Thanks for reading and looking forward to hearing your opinions.
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swap it. s52 or s54 if you got money. wish i went that route -
... or be a lil different and wait a few months till k24 swap kits come into the market.
Few companies are working on them rn.
Stock k24 makes good power for such a small power-plant, and potentially keep e30-everything from the bellhouse to the diff."Time doesn't heal anything... It just teaches us how to live with the pain." - My Cracked DashboardComment
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It's definitely been done a lot, but S or even M52 is I think the best bang for your buck. The swap is so easy and well documented, and can be done fairly cheap. You also get OBD2, and a nice boost to power.Comment
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I think it's pointless to swap a b25 for a m5x. Personally I'd keep the original engine that you know is good and build an eta stroker with some off the shelf pistons. Drop everything off a machine shop and I bet that what it would cost to have them professionally assemble the short block and do a valve job on the head is comparable to the price of a healthy s5x and all the parts you need to hunt down for a complete swap (transmission, driveshaft, oil pan, exhaust, brake booster, etc). There's no dealing with the brake booster clearance or exhaust fabrication, it just bolts back in place and you're good to go. Not as powerful as a s5x but so what.Comment
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Price is definitely less of the issue, I'm moreso looking for reliability and something that will be desired on the second hand market should I sell it after building it. I intend to put a lot in the car and I firmly believe the quality of the engine build should match or exceed the quality of the exterior. The m20 has been a breeze for me to work on which is nice as well but mine is a bit beat up and definitely needs the refresh despite having only 13x,xxx miles on it. Do you know of any links on here for an ETA stroker build? Ive reviewed a few of the swap threads for the m/s52 and it really doesn't seem all that challenging. Most challenging bit seems to be finding the parts to do it right.Originally posted by E30 Wagen View PostComment
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How is the s54 compared to earlier s series motors? I've had a few friends who have had endless issues with their e46 m3s so it scared me a bit. Also I've yet to look into what that swap entails but I'm assuming it's a bit more in depth then the earlier engines. Wish I could do an s38 and keep the era the same... That's a badass motor but would be unspeakably expensive :(Originally posted by efficient View PostComment
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Depends on what you want out of it performance wise. If the car is being brought to show quality it makes the most sense to have a squeaky clean M20 under the hood, whether stock looking, ITB equipped or turbocharged. The only M5X swaps that makes sense are the aluminum 2.8 or an M54B30. Everything else is extra weight gain for nothing since it's downright easy to make the meager M50/52 power with an M20 build. Plus M5Xs are so ugly...
I suppose a case could be made for an M50 swap if you want to make big turbo power, but people have done that on M20s too (Nisse Järnet making like 700whp with an M20 comes to mind).
A 2.8 Stroker M20 is M52B28 crank, 130mm M20 rods (eta or aftermarket), M20B25 pistons, deck brought down to suit and give a good compression ratio, and a spacer on the crank snout. There's some machine work involved, taking the skirts on the pistons and the weights on the crankshaft down, but it's an easy recipe for 200hp+ depending on how much you want to spend on a head, cam and induction system. It's a tried and true recipe and it keeps the handsome M20 under your hood instead of those awful plastic valve covers on M5X and S50/52. If you want some fast a turbo M20 is the way to go, especially since you aren't going to be tracking a show ready car; it's too risky.
2.8 examples: https://www.r3vlimited.com/board/for...i-reincarnated
There are lots of them and it's easy to find them if you search with google by using the site:r3vlimited.com in your search, vs the forum's search engine.Last edited by varg; 04-18-2020, 07:25 PM.Comment
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Thank you for the fantastic response!! Gave me a lot of good points to think about... One question tho. When you said turboing is a good idea for more power in the show car category as tracking it is too risky, what exactly did you mean? I honestly really like the idea of a turbo m20 and don't need to make crazy power but would like to be in the mid 200s at least. Any resources for turbo m20 builds on here? I was under the impression the 2.7s were better for turbo builds as the lower compression suits them better.Originally posted by varg View PostDepends on what you want out of it performance wise. If the car is being brought to show quality it makes the most sense to have a squeaky clean M20 under the hood, whether stock looking, ITB equipped or turbocharged. The only M5X swaps that makes sense are the aluminum 2.8 or an M54B30. Everything else is extra weight gain for nothing since it's downright easy to make the meager M50/52 power with an M20 build. Plus M5Xs are so ugly... I suppose a case could be made for an M50 swap if you want to make big turbo power, but people have done that on M20s too (Nisse Järnet making like 700whp with an M20 comes to mind).
A 2.8 Stroker M20 is M52B28 crank, 130mm M20 rods (eta or aftermarket), M20B25 pistons, deck brought down to suit and give a good compression ratio, and a spacer on the crank snout. There's some machine work involved, taking the skirts on the pistons and the weights on the crankshaft down, but it's an easy recipe for 200hp+ depending on how much you want to spend on a head, cam and induction system. It's a tried and true recipe and it keeps the handsome M20 under your hood instead of those awful plastic valve covers on M5X and S50/52. If you want some fast a turbo M20 is the way to go, especially since you aren't going to be tracking a show ready car; it's too risky.
2.8 examples: https://www.r3vlimited.com/board/for...i-reincarnated
There are lots of them and it's easy to find them if you search with google by using the site:r3vlimited.com in your search, vs the forum's search engine.Comment
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Whoops didn't realize your search suggestions. My badOriginally posted by varg View PostDepends on what you want out of it performance wise. If the car is being brought to show quality it makes the most sense to have a squeaky clean M20 under the hood, whether stock looking, ITB equipped or turbocharged. The only M5X swaps that makes sense are the aluminum 2.8 or an M54B30. Everything else is extra weight gain for nothing since it's downright easy to make the meager M50/52 power with an M20 build. Plus M5Xs are so ugly... I suppose a case could be made for an M50 swap if you want to make big turbo power, but people have done that on M20s too (Nisse Järnet making like 700whp with an M20 comes to mind).
A 2.8 Stroker M20 is M52B28 crank, 130mm M20 rods (eta or aftermarket), M20B25 pistons, deck brought down to suit and give a good compression ratio, and a spacer on the crank snout. There's some machine work involved, taking the skirts on the pistons and the weights on the crankshaft down, but it's an easy recipe for 200hp+ depending on how much you want to spend on a head, cam and induction system. It's a tried and true recipe and it keeps the handsome M20 under your hood instead of those awful plastic valve covers on M5X and S50/52. If you want some fast a turbo M20 is the way to go, especially since you aren't going to be tracking a show ready car; it's too risky.
2.8 examples: https://www.r3vlimited.com/board/for...i-reincarnated
There are lots of them and it's easy to find them if you search with google by using the site:r3vlimited.com in your search, vs the forum's search engine.Comment
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M30 swap is the easiest if your new to swaps and want to start with something simple with a 50hp gain and tons of torqueOriginally posted by GarbageCanE30 View Post
85% of the time i have no idea what I'm doingComment
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Tracking a show ready car is too risky. Just the rocks getting flung up by the car in front of you will ruin your show ready paint unless you tape it, and if you don't lose it yourself there's a good possibility that someone else losing it or dumping coolant or something could end your car for you. Additionally, a turbo M20 needs other upgrades to be track worthy. A cooling system and oil cooler upgrade, and the car will need bigger brakes unless you turn the boost down. When it's easily making twice stock wheel horsepower it's going to be 30mph faster than the spec E30 guys go on the same straights. M20 turbo builds are common, the parts are available to make it pretty much a bolt on affair from header to plug and play MS ECU, and build threads are numerous addressing most questions you would have. The more you read the more you'll learn about the nuances of these options and that will help guide your decision. A used M20 will make twice stock power indefinitely, let alone a refreshed one. The only way to kill it at the power output you're talking about is a bad tune or serious neglect. 8.8:1 is the stock M20B25 compression ratio, it's nearly perfect for turbocharging and would be even better at 9:1. I wouldn't want a lower compression ratio than that, the car will be a dog off boost.Originally posted by GarbageCanE30 View PostComment
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I personally would recommend an m54 - it is the newest of the (mostly) bolt in 24v options. m/s50s are approaching 25-30yrs old at this point, the majority of them would benefit from an overhaul. As noted above, doing a "normal" m50 swap really isn't worth it vs building an m20 (with that in mind, I have had an m50 in mine for 5 years at this point and love it - though the car started out w/a m10)
You mentioned show-worthy and tracking it, what is your end goal?Comment
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My goal isn't a track car, but a car that could be tracked and is built to withstand some abuse. I honestly really like the idea of keeping the m20 and turboing it as I think keeping things period correct for show purposes is an interesting notion. I also just stumbled across and extremely rare dinan turbo kit from the early 90s made for m20s and it's got me thinking... Although it's not particularly competitive or likely even ideal turbo charging technology by today's standards, mannnn would it be cool to have a period correct full dinan kit on the og motor that came in the car. Just a thought.. Another reason I'm beginning to lean away from a swap is this is something I hope to accomplish fairly quickly, which can be difficult when hunting for individual parts to complete the build.Originally posted by KI4UJO View PostComment
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whatever it is you need to turbo it.
m20 is sweet.
m30 is nice too. The thing i really like about the m30 is that 100% stock it can handle 500tq all day.
m50 is also nice because the aftermarket for those is huge.
When you say show worthy do u mean like with judges or like impressing parking lot guys?
m30/m20 for sure m50 just looks like a plastic box.
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