NA is best - 3.1L M20 w/ ITB's

[berlow94]

For the $, I would look at the Link Fury ecu. Has built in wideband O2 controller (Haltech you have to buy separately) better closed loop control, e-throttle support, etc. Although, the Haltech unit does come in a pretty swanky case!


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[ForcedFirebird]

MS CAN'T handle that! Link sells an ECU for the same price as MS3 that CAN handle that!

I have no idea what you have against MS, but it certainly CAN do all those engines. There are many many people using them on all the engines you listed.

[ForcedFirebird]

I have been reading your awesome thread like the Bible haha, it's actually what convinced me to go ahead with RHD. I haven't had any issues with the stock injectors on the bigger engine so far and I've got an AFR meter, but I guess if 17 doesn't cut it I'll just go bigger! I'm also planning on limiting to ~6200rpm at this point which should hopefully keep things in check.

17lb injectors will be severely inadequate. With a 2.8 m20 9.4:1 compression, ported head and only a 272 cam, we ran out of injector just over 200whp and only 5k RPM with 19's. We went with 24lb and would have to open the logs, but pretty sure we were a tad under 80% at 217whp/202tq.

[SkiFree]

Hope all is well up there in the great white north. Good to see your progress.

Just as an FYI, shortly before I left IE I got dyno results from a friend down in Australia who has almost the exact same setup (same piston specs, 288 cam, 42mm RHD ITB's.). After tuning he was running 275whp with a healthy curve. Cannot remember what injectors he was running.

[LJ851]

Hope all is well up there in the great white north. Good to see your progress.

Just as an FYI, shortly before I left IE I got dyno results from a friend down in Australia who has almost the exact same setup (same piston specs, 288 cam, 42mm RHD ITB's.). After tuning he was running 275whp with a healthy curve. Cannot remember what injectors he was running.

Do you know what kind of head/valve work? Impressive numbers.

[berlow94]

I'd be very curious to see a N/A M20 making 275 hp at the wheels. Any chance we can see a dyno sheet?

I'm daydreaming about building up my spare IX block that's now glaring at me in the garage...

[berlow94]

I have no idea what you have against MS, but it certainly CAN do all those engines. There are many many people using them on all the engines you listed.

Maybe it CAN physically start and run those engines. But in no way can it take as full advantage of them as the = priced Link and Haltech units. Charging for time (including install and tuning), and paying for software and programmable features, and buying an external wideband controller, at the end of the day its a loss.

[digger]

No way is it cheaper to install and tune with link or haltech there is not a pnp solution for the m20 with them

[ForcedFirebird]

Maybe it CAN physically start and run those engines. But in no way can it take as full advantage of them as the = priced Link and Haltech units. Charging for time (including install and tuning), and paying for software and programmable features, and buying an external wideband controller, at the end of the day its a loss.

Can run and fully run them, functional dual vanos, knock sensors, all of it. You said in the previous post the MS couldn't do it at all.

I'd be very curious to see a N/A M20 making 275 hp at the wheels. Any chance we can see a dyno sheet?

Look up posts from e21jps and morerevsm3. They both have built crazy m20's...

[berlow94]

No way is it cheaper to install and tune with link or haltech there is not a pnp solution for the m20 with them

Nor is their a PnP solution with the comparable Megasquirt Ecu...


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[ForcedFirebird]

Nor is their a PnP solution with the comparable Megasquirt Ecu...


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The car in the links above did it with carbs on one and EMU on the other. The m20 is a simple engine. Gen2 PNP is more than adequate. I use whodwho's MS in a lot of builds, even daily drivers without issue. PNP's are $7-800, even adding WB, still no where near $1200

[digger]

Nor is their a PnP solution with the comparable Megasquirt Ecu...


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there is a PNP system that does all you need for a m20 (basically as PNP as you can get) . you actually dont need much to run the m20 very well.

[Alpina]

Well done

[berlow94]

I'm not having this discussion for the 100th time.
If you want to protect your $7k+ hardware investment with a sub $1k ecu then have at it. If you want to make the most power out of your motor with the greatest reliability then lets talk. :)


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[npavlo]

I have no idea what you have against MS, but it certainly CAN do all those engines. There are many many people using them on all the engines you listed.

Andrew mentioned S54 in that post. How can the MS run S54? Nobody is running MS with a fully functional S54 no way. It can't even do Ethrottle. So switch to cable like all MS people think is the solution (because E-throtlte is stupid LOL - I actually install DBW on S52 engines on purpose), without proper air bleed the throttles will never be synced right, and the geometry is not linear mechanically. You MUST bleed air properly with S54 with the idle valve or it NEVER works right. You don't even open the throttles on S54s until you are about 25% pedal position deep. This bleed air from that massive air distribution pipe evens out the syncing issue, plus eliminates the differential pressure so the throttles don't stick closed.

And VANOS, requires two HIGH SIDE outputs PER camshaft with a special PID strategy because motorsport VANOS has no default position. I could write 10 more paragraphs about this.

Haltech can't even run Motorsport Dual VANOS yet if I am not mistaken, so how the hell would DIY MS stuff come even close if they don't even have E-throttle systems? As far as I know, the ONLY system that properly controls Motorsport Dual VANOS right now is the Emtron ECU system. Link, Motec, Life, and Cosworth can too, but they overregulate the solenoids when in the target deadband, and require hardware modifications most of the time to enable them to be driven by low side outputs.

If you are saying people "run" those engines by taking off all of the parts like E-throttle/VANOS, and all the other cool stuff that makes those engines what they are then you are just talking about an engine management system that opens injectors up and turns a coil on. OF COURSE it can "run" it. Maybe switch to a distributor too. That be "dope".

MS (even MS3pro) can't be compared to the flexibility of the Link and Haltech systems. Just download the software and poke through it. Look at all the tables, offsets, compensations, map switching, table blending, and more.

There are a lot of management systems that say they "do" something, but actually can't. There is one brand advertising traction control and all they do is look at the RPM ROC to determine wheel slip. LOL.