Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

Japandrew73's OEM Euro Restore

Collapse
This topic is closed.
X
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

    Jean & Ben both have valid points about the appearance of the cat. You have a high probability of passing the visual BAR inspection with the BMW logo on the cat.

    I would be more concerned about the actual tail pipe emissions (sniff test) not passing. Think about it, the M3 is 2500cc 4 cyl, vs. your transplant at 3500cc 6 cyl. That's a 29% bigger (& all the combustion gas volumn etc.) motor (yea!!) - but you trying to put all the combusted volume through a cat that is made to function correctly (convert NOX) at @ 30% less volume. I'm sure the manufacturer overbuilt the cat somewhat - but the exotic materials inside it are very expensive so I question if they put 30% more than it needed. Said another way - if you have a 100,000 gal pool & put a filter on it that is for a 70,000 gal pool, it's not going to get out all the gunk.

    The following is an excerpt from a discussion on "cats" on the e30M3sig. While it does not apply totally to Andrews swap, it does make some valid points on their operation.

    "Group,
    I have watched this thread for a few days and felt the need to address it.
    I am a BMW Technician,repair shop owner, a BMW owner for over 30 years, and many of you know me through racing and club activities esp in CA.
    As far as the smog issue , Yes clean oil will help, fresh spark plugs and filters a plus. A well functioning oxygen sensor is necessary BUT if the cat isn't working well enough then it won't pass . End of story.

    Some of you have stated ideas, and theories and while all have merit(most of you are VERY intelligent well schooled people). Practically speaking as the car ages, the cat ages, and becomes contaminated with fuel, and oil.
    There are some ways to minimize their effect(intake cleaners, etc) but unless you replace the cat, the only way you can get the cats to "light" and work properly is to get them hot, and Darrens suggestion to run the hell out of them, high RPM runs for 10 minutes or so ,maybe more, then run it ASAP to the smog station is really the best way to deal with an older catalytic converter.

    Here in CA. we have a very strict smog test, and we have to smog the cars every 2 years, (some every year) and I probably take at least 5 cars a month to be smogged and we have to do this procedure to most if they won't pass on the first attempt, after we take it for a good run almost all pass on the next attempt.
    All said it works, and unless you can afford a new cat then this is the only viable answer. Sometimes it doesn't work as the internals of the cat are just not functioning and your only recourse it to replace the cat.
    Thanks for reading, I HTH...
    Billy Maher"

    excerpt #2
    "Group,

    Billy that was a very good explanation of the problem and its resolution.

    Now the technical reason....
    FYI: The Cat is made with two active materials:
    Platinum or Palladium for the CO and HC reduction.
    Rhodium for the NOx reduction. Both are usually mixed together in a one cat system. But many times they are in separated sections. The rhodium needs a higher temp to work and the platinum/paladium and HC and CO oxidation creates the higher temperature (exothermic) for the Rhodium to work which is a non heat production process (endothermic). So if the cat is dirty with oil or fuel deposits on the Platinum/Paladium, then the Rhodium does not work well/ So in a nutshell the hotter the cat the better the rhodium works (NOx reduction).

    John Siemak
    MS in Chemistry...
    Work with the Catalyst Production departments at GM and Toyota..."


    Before I buy an M3 muffler & run up the bill at Mesa Muffler, I would pick the brains of a capable smog tech or engineer & see if the cat from a @30% smaller engine is going to effect the tail pipe emissions.

    I think it was Jean who prepared a binder with all the swap specifics (part #'s etc) to show to the referee - that is an excellent idea !!
    Last edited by cactusjacks1; 10-21-2009, 08:58 AM.
    [I

    Comment


      I found that very interesting Jack! I will definitely do some research and ask around about this. I didn't consider the points made in your post. Thanks for bringing it to mind. :)

      As an updated, I drove over to the local machine shop with a trunk full of dirty parts. They will come back clean in a few days and be ready for primer and paint. There were a few parts that are in there (you may or may not be able to see them) that have already been bead-blasted but the back of them is dirty and instead of wasting the time with a brush, soap, and water, I might as well through them into the batch! Can't wait to see how they come back! :D

      Comment


        Another thing is, what downpipes are now going to match up to that e30m3 center section? If it's going to be a cut/weld thing it will be another area BAR tech will look at, and risk failing. E32/E34 pipes comes right down and you just buy a $120 magnaflow CA legal cat from performancepeddler.com and off you go.

        And to add one more thing on the same topic as having the right size cat for the application, that mid section/cats might be bottleneck for the m30.
        Mtech1 v8 build thread - https://www.r3vlimited.com/board/sho...d.php?t=413205



        OEM v8 manual chip or dme - https://www.r3vlimited.com/board/sho....php?p=4938827

        Comment


          Originally posted by Jean View Post
          Another thing is, what downpipes are now going to match up to that e30m3 center section? If it's going to be a cut/weld thing it will be another area BAR tech will look at, and risk failing. E32/E34 pipes comes right down and you just buy a $120 magnaflow CA legal cat from performancepeddler.com and off you go.

          And to add one more thing on the same topic as having the right size cat for the application, that mid section/cats might be bottleneck for the m30.
          I'm going to get a stock e30 m3 flange from the header side and match it up with the m30 down pipes. A bit of custom welding will be used but the stock flange will make it look like a factory setup, and it will all be painted the same color so it won't look like a bunch of mis-matching aftermarket exhaust pieces welded together sloppily.

          Comment


            Cool! Sounds like you did some homework on this and have it figured out then, good luck dude!
            Mtech1 v8 build thread - https://www.r3vlimited.com/board/sho...d.php?t=413205



            OEM v8 manual chip or dme - https://www.r3vlimited.com/board/sho....php?p=4938827

            Comment


              Originally posted by Jean View Post
              Cool! Sounds like you did some homework on this and have it figured out then, good luck dude!
              Thanks! You've been very helpful during this whole process. Jack I'm definitely going to take into consideration what you said and do some research to be sure it will work.

              Comment


                Jack, after researching, I have no doubt the m3 exhaust system will be great to match up with the m30. The center section is actually from a standard e30 m3 (2.3 liter) instead of a sport evo (2.5 liter), but besides the fact, you have to take into account many different things. The s14 and the m30 are two VERY different engines, one revving to 7.8 RPM and the other revving to 6.2K. The s14 turns at a much faster rate than the m30 and with this among many other factors the e30 m3 center section was designed to withstand more than it's engine could put out. Another supporting argument towards that is (if I believe correctly) the standard e30 m3 (2.3 liter) had the same cats as the e30 m3 sport evo (2.5 liter) and so this somewhat proves the manufacturers put more than enough materials into the cat to make it withstand a higher power engine. All in all, I believe it will pass smog fine with the center section on, it will sound great, and flow nicely. I'm not planning on turboing the m30 anyways, the cats will be able to handle a stock m30.

                Comment


                  Originally posted by Jean View Post
                  Your guides have more wear on them than what came out of my engine with 160k miles dude, maybe check the bearings too ;)
                  I'm just going to quote this....

                  1992 BMW 325iC
                  1978 Chevrolet Monte Carlo
                  1965 Chevrolet Corvair Monza 140hp

                  Comment


                    lulz.

                    Sounds like a case of the "while you are in there's"

                    Comment


                      Originally posted by JasonC View Post
                      I'm just going to quote this....
                      you do that.

                      Comment


                        Originally posted by Japandrew73 View Post
                        you do that.
                        smug.
                        Originally posted by Simon S
                        When a dream is a dream for too long - it becomes a fantasy..

                        Comment


                          Originally posted by Japandrew73 View Post
                          Jack, after researching, I have no doubt the m3 exhaust system will be great to match up with the m30. The center section is actually from a standard e30 m3 (2.3 liter) instead of a sport evo (2.5 liter), but besides the fact, you have to take into account many different things. The s14 and the m30 are two VERY different engines, one revving to 7.8 RPM and the other revving to 6.2K. The s14 turns at a much faster rate than the m30 and with this among many other factors the e30 m3 center section was designed to withstand more than it's engine could put out. Another supporting argument towards that is (if I believe correctly) the standard e30 m3 (2.3 liter) had the same cats as the e30 m3 sport evo (2.5 liter) and so this somewhat proves the manufacturers put more than enough materials into the cat to make it withstand a higher power engine. All in all, I believe it will pass smog fine with the center section on, it will sound great, and flow nicely. I'm not planning on turboing the m30 anyways, the cats will be able to handle a stock m30.
                          As suggested, I would discuss this with a smog tech in detail before spending $300-$400 to buy a E30M3 muffler mounted to what could be a very tired center section & "bend to fit" your car - then find out that it wont pass "sniff". Your math above is only a variance of 8% (2.3 to 2.5) not the actual 30% your faced with. If your truly comfortable with the "experts" you have talked too then that means your are willing to take the risk involved if it doesn't work - part of the fun in a swap is to plan out everything you can anticipate - have at it & GL that it works!!
                          [I

                          Comment


                            Originally posted by Mtriple View Post
                            smug.
                            How else am I supposed to respond to that? It's like everybody following this thread wants me to fail. I've been getting these type of comments since the very beginning.

                            Comment


                              I think that most are trying to help you out. Your comments like the one above only feed the fire. Remember, its your project posted on a public forum. If you dont like what's being said, ignore it and move on. As mentioned, those rails are worn bad enough that I might be concerned about what else is going on.
                              Originally posted by Simon S
                              When a dream is a dream for too long - it becomes a fantasy..

                              Comment


                                Originally posted by Japandrew73 View Post
                                Jack, after researching, I have no doubt the m3 exhaust system will be great to match up with the m30. The center section is actually from a standard e30 m3 (2.3 liter) instead of a sport evo (2.5 liter), but besides the fact, you have to take into account many different things. The s14 and the m30 are two VERY different engines, one revving to 7.8 RPM and the other revving to 6.2K. The s14 turns at a much faster rate than the m30 and with this among many other factors the e30 m3 center section was designed to withstand more than it's engine could put out. Another supporting argument towards that is (if I believe correctly) the standard e30 m3 (2.3 liter) had the same cats as the e30 m3 sport evo (2.5 liter) and so this somewhat proves the manufacturers put more than enough materials into the cat to make it withstand a higher power engine. All in all, I believe it will pass smog fine with the center section on, it will sound great, and flow nicely. I'm not planning on turboing the m30 anyways, the cats will be able to handle a stock m30.

                                Its not about the cat "being able" to handle the power or not. That cat would have to be as efficient or more then than the one that would have been mated to a stock m30 motor. The m30 is way bigger in displacement than the s14 motor. With that being said its definitely more likely to have polluted more since day one. The only way the BAR is going to be cool with a OE cat being used is if its the one that came off that e28.

                                -Chris
                                Big Brain- "The big brain am winning again! I am the greetest! Now I am leaving earth for no raison!"

                                - California Certified Smog Technician -

                                Comment

                                Working...
                                X