So Virginia bans O-Care

[Hallen]

I love how you guys are so quick to dismiss government (which I am ultimately not a big fan of either), but you will defend the corporations and the "free market" till the bitter end. The government and big business have become virtually indistinguishable in this country. Business executives run the government and use it to further their profit making agendas. The whole existence of corporations is due to the government and they wouldn't even exist without it.

Don't go there. I've never said that. I am for a free market. But large corporations are really free market either. Sure, they're going to exist. But like alluded to before, the main reason a lot of these big corps are still in business is because of government interventions, subsidies, special laws, etc. I hate that kind of stuff too.

I also think that most publicly traded companies have lost their way in the night and there's no fixing it that I can see. They are victims of their own stupidity and the stock market has a lot to do with that. They are beholden to their stock price, quarter by quarter, and nothing else. They aren't interested in making great products. They aren't interested in the long term viability of the company. They aren't really interested in customers. They just want to keep pushing the stock prices up "for their investors". It's bullshit of course. They keep pushing the stock prices up because that's how a lot of their compensation is packaged, stock options.

Yes, you want to have your stock remain at a good price so that if you need to generate more capital, you can, and so that you don't get bought out by somebody else. But honestly, I can't understand why they do the incredibly stupid crap that publicly traded corporations do just to push up their stock price at the end of the quarter. It's devastating to our ability to really make good money in the long term. It's devastating to the economy on a certain level. It makes people hate to work for these companies. It makes people hate to buy from them too. It's more important to make something cheaply than it is to make something of quality.

Anyway, I work for a publicly traded company and I see this stupid shit every day.

I am for the free market, but that doesn't mean I support morons who do a lousy job running a company all in the name of the "investors". There's plenty to be fixed there too, and honestly, a truly free market would be one way of doing it.

[Wiglaf]

You know, from the general tone of your posts, and mind you this is a personal opinion I've come to hold, you're a very ugly, narrow minded, unpleasant person. I hope for your sake you're just e-toughing it up a bit.

I do have to admit I am becoming quite irritated with the issue in general. Sorry if I said anything personal. This particular thread isn't too bad but I do come across a lot of people that literally think that we are in the middle of a SOSHLIST TAKEOVER, really most of the reasons people seem to be against reform is based on fear and misinformation. There's a lot of people bashing the government with the notion that they can't get anything right but I'm not one of them. Yes virtually ever aspect could stand to run more efficiently, but the job gets done.

Not sure why you picked the tax idea+gov reduction as a reason to call me narrow minded and ugly.
I look at it like this: The simplest solution that will work is the best solution.

[mrsleeve]

Corporations as they are today did not exist until the late 19th century.

Ok I can see where you are going with that.

Why is that the case. OH yeah the GOVT stuck its nose in where it dose not belong. Some regulation is necessary but very very little. in fact the less the better.

My original point was that big business would be here with or with out govt involvement

[LBJefferies]

Yes large multinational all encompassing business have not been around making tons of money since before the founding of this country

your an idiot

Corporations as they are today did not exist until the late 19th century.

Actually it might even have been later.

[mrsleeve]

NO THEY WOULDN'T!! Corporations exist in the way that they do because the government decided that they should be given the same rights as individuals.

Yes large multinational all encompassing business have not been around making tons of money since before the founding of this country

your an idiot

[LBJefferies]

Yes corps have jumped into bed with the govt to gain favorable position. But they would be there with or with out the govt.

NO THEY WOULDN'T!! Corporations exist in the way that they do because the government decided that they should be given the same rights as individuals.

[mrsleeve]

I love how you guys are so quick to dismiss government (which I am ultimately not a big fan of either), but you will defend the corporations and the "free market" till the bitter end. The government and big business have become virtually indistinguishable in this country. Business executives run the government and use it to further their profit making agendas. The whole existence of corporations is due to the government and they wouldn't even exist without it.

put the bong down


Yes corps have jumped into bed with the govt to gain favorable position. But they would be there with or with out the govt.

Do I like this fact no, the govt should not be involved in private enterprise. But this is the world we live in.

[LBJefferies]

I love how you guys are so quick to dismiss government (which I am ultimately not a big fan of either), but you will defend the corporations and the "free market" till the bitter end. The government and big business have become virtually indistinguishable in this country. Business executives run the government and use it to further their profit making agendas. The whole existence of corporations is due to the government and they wouldn't even exist without it.

[Naplm00]

shut the fuck up.

you know how much i pay for health insurance? $ 80 a month.

if its so important to you, why dont YOU fucking buy it.

Uh if you read, I did...and I do now.

[ck_taft325is]

While we are on this, here's an idea you can feel free to bash apart:

I think the most fair would be a flat-tax, no deductions, loopholes, anything. Just reduce it until it's so fucking simple that nobody can squirm out of it.
If this is changed to a sales tax then even better, because even illegals and stock traders would be paying into it automatically buy buying things, and the average joe can save money easier by just not spending money. No room to squirm out by hiding income or any of that crap.

Then replace welfare, grants, all those misc social programs, and this complicated tax return shit with one simple monthly check that everyone (that legally files) gets, it is the same amount of money regardless of paygrade or how many rugrats you did or didn't pump out. This will be the "bracket adjustment" or whatever you want to call it despite brackets not existing anymore. All those offices and social workers are gone. This system in it's simplicity would be the most fair and efficient. Blind to disability, sob stories, "hardships", race, age, people trying to play the system, etc. It treats everyone the same. Someone who earned $400M pays the same % and got the same return checks as someone who earned $15k and has 12 mistakes to feed. tax rebates, incentives, all of that nonsense is gone. The actual amount of the rebate checks, and the tax % are the only two variables to adjust. If done carefully it could probly replace unemployment and social security as well.. putting more responsibility on the individual to save, but also making it easier by taking less money before it hits your pockets. And pretty much eliminating the overhead of those programs.

I also think the federal reserve has got to go. Going back to the gold standard, or at least a factor of it, is the only way to preserve a remotely sustainable economy. Pure gold standard is pretty much the only way to not have inflation. The way banks operate by creating money has us fundamentally fucked regardless of how any of our taxes and programs are configured.

You know, from the general tone of your posts, and mind you this is a personal opinion I've come to hold, you're a very ugly, narrow minded, unpleasant person. I hope for your sake you're just e-toughing it up a bit.

[mar1t1me]

I am not arguing that government does not have a roll to play. Those safety organizations have by and far been a positive influence on society. However, they have huge flaws still, and that section 8 example is brilliant. It just shows how inept the government can be with this kind of thing. The post office is horribly inneficient, expensive, and slow to react to anything. Amtrak is another great example of the shit government provides. OSHA has been a huge help in identifying workplace hazards. It's also been a huge burden on small business with their outlandish, impractical and unreasonable requirements. The list goes on.

The underlying issue is that we have been conditioned to believe we can legislate risk from our lives. If something goes wrong, we immediately look for someone we can sue. The cost of this is why some medicines are costly, and why health care is outrageous. The cost of inevitable litigation is built right in!

Same goes for well-meaning things like OSHA. They start as common-sense approaches to safety, then the lawyers get hold of it and exploit every opportunity for their own profit. So then we get more regulations, almost always based on the outcome of a lawsuit.

You might enjoy what this guy has to say about it. Excessive litigation is a key component of why we can't get anything done in this country!

Amtrak is a bad example. They are largely at the mercy of the corporations upon whose rails their trains travel. All my experiences on Amtrak have largely been pleasant, though not exactly fast.

I do think it's funny how we're told we have a War on Terror in progress and that no stone is being left unturned to protect our country....never mind you can hop on an Amtrak train in the middle of the night-some stations I've visited in the lower 48 aren't even attended by humans....with little in the way of ID, pay for a ticket on board and stow your bag full of bombs that no one will search. You can take that train to within a few blocks of the Capitol and White House, or into Penn Station and detonate your dirty bomb and no one would know about it until it was done. There is ZERO security.

[Wiglaf]

While we are on this, here's an idea you can feel free to bash apart:

I think the most fair would be a flat-tax, no deductions, loopholes, anything. Just reduce it until it's so fucking simple that nobody can squirm out of it.
If this is changed to a sales tax then even better, because even illegals and stock traders would be paying into it automatically buy buying things, and the average joe can save money easier by just not spending money. No room to squirm out by hiding income or any of that crap.

Then replace welfare, grants, all those misc social programs, and this complicated tax return shit with one simple monthly check that everyone (that legally files) gets, it is the same amount of money regardless of paygrade or how many rugrats you did or didn't pump out. This will be the "bracket adjustment" or whatever you want to call it despite brackets not existing anymore. All those offices and social workers are gone. This system in it's simplicity would be the most fair and efficient. Blind to disability, sob stories, "hardships", race, age, people trying to play the system, etc. It treats everyone the same. Someone who earned $400M pays the same % and got the same return checks as someone who earned $15k and has 12 mistakes to feed. tax rebates, incentives, all of that nonsense is gone. The actual amount of the rebate checks, and the tax % are the only two variables to adjust. If done carefully it could probly replace unemployment and social security as well.. putting more responsibility on the individual to save, but also making it easier by taking less money before it hits your pockets. And pretty much eliminating the overhead of those programs.

I also think the federal reserve has got to go. Going back to the gold standard, or at least a factor of it, is the only way to preserve a remotely sustainable economy. Pure gold standard is pretty much the only way to not have inflation. The way banks operate by creating money has us fundamentally fucked regardless of how any of our taxes and programs are configured.

[Hallen]

Jesus fucking christ.

To all that talk about its unfair to pay more taxes or shit when you are wealthier

Do you know why we have a progressive income tax?

First, take a look at this.

http://www.taxanalysts.com/www/featu...7?OpenDocument

Hey, why don't we cut their taxes some more?

The intent is that citizens pay what they are financially able.

And that's presicely the type of thinking that shows how well accepted its having the government included in every aspect of your life. That's simply not healthy.

The intent is to have people pay their fair share. It is most certainly NOT to have them pay what they are financially able to pay. The progressive income tax structure is seen as being fair for the most part, but it has many flaws too. But that isn't the point. The point is your misunderstanding of how things are supposed to work.

That chart they show in the story you link is exactly the point. As their marginal tax rates go down, they earn more (which means they pay more than they did before, just at a lower marginal rate. Figured I better spell that out for you). How do you think they earned more? Do you think they just wiped their ass and ended up with money on the toilet paper?? They frigging earned it. They earned it by providing value to a business somewhere. That business provided jobs and wealth to many people. When you lower the marginal tax rate, you encourage people to take risks, start businesses, compete, get out there an make a go of it, simply because the rewards are worth the risk. We all get wealthier for it.

As marginal tax rates go up, you discourage people from taking risks. We all get poorer for it. FDR proved without a shadow of a doubt that extremely high marginal tax rates, and regulated wage levels for workers, are extremely devastating to free enterprise and the economy as a whole. It does not work. I cannot stress that enough, or often enough apparently.

I am not arguing that government does not have a roll to play. Those safety organizations have by and far been a positive influence on society. However, they have huge flaws still, and that section 8 example is brilliant. It just shows how inept the government can be with this kind of thing. The post office is horribly inneficient, expensive, and slow to react to anything. Amtrak is another great example of the shit government provides. OSHA has been a huge help in identifying workplace hazards. It's also been a huge burden on small business with their outlandish, impractical and unreasonable requirements. The list goes on.

Just because the government is entrenched in your daily life does not make it right or good. You'll never understand until you have to fight through all the rules and regulations in order to get something done. You know what is necessary to make something safe. But the regulatory requirements don't. They are equally applied to everything within a category even if there is 0 risk of a problem. It costs businesses billions of dollars every year to comply with capricious and unnecessary regulations. Government simply can't administer things effectively enough. We all pay for this in higher prices for everything we buy. It's one of the reasons why the drugs you take are so damn expensive. The FDA is one of the poorest run agencies out there. Need I go on? Those are the bad things that we should be working at fixing instead of trying to add yet another entitlement program to the list.

Isnt that what a society is about?

To an extent and yes my posts can be selfish, with good damn reason too: Everywhere I look, I see MY MONEY going to wasteful shit. Too many people COMPLETELY underestimate how much abuse and fraud there is in the system. I see it all first hand. There is NO REASON my money should be used to house ILLEGALS in the US prison system. There is NO REASON my money should be paying healthcare bills for somebody who is ILLEGAL in this country. There is NO REASON my money should be paying welfare for women who stay at home and have babies to make more money. There is NO REASON that foodstamps should be able to be used on trash food (snack foods like cheetos, soda, easy cheese, the list goes on of all the crap I see these people buying.) There is NO REASON for so much goverment waste (it is an entire issue, not just HC)....

Case in point (in cliffnotes):
-My father owns Section 8 apartments.
-These have to be "certified" Section 8 by the city.
-Inspector comes out and looks at the apartment, the refrigerator does not have "crisper" drawers.
-Inspector fails the apartment due to the refrigerator not having "crisper" drawers.
-Father realizes that a Section 8 apartment doesn't HAVE to even have a refrigerator.
-Father removes refrigerator from apartment.
-Inspector comes out and certifies apartment as Section 8 with no refrigerator.
-The city wastes its time and screws the people it is trying to help, as usual, since now the poor renters have to get their own refrigerator. Did the rent go down? Nope.
- 100% perfect example of waste.

I am sick of all the free handouts that the US government gives out for votes. My wife and I have worked extremely hard for our money and to have recession proof jobs.

However, this "sliding scale" is a joke. It just goes to show you, what could be next? Cable bill goes up for people who make over 100k? Waste/gas bill should cost more for people with over 100k? Should everything cost more just because you have "more" money to pay it? Hell no -- it is an incentive killer.

BTW, you get a $100k job working your ass off. That is exactly the attitude to NOT have. You don't just "sign-up" for a 100k job. You can easily go back to school and make over $100k here, in a few different professions.

[mikeedler]

Also, as for this "14% of my pay" in Germany crap. What horseshit. Somebody who makes 100k will pay a lot more than somebody who makes 20k and still gets the same amount of care?!?!?! What a joke! How is that "fair???" Just because somebody worked their ass off to make money, and the other person is a lazy ass, they get the same care?!?!?!? And that makes sense how?!@#?!?@

what is fair in this world??? that some peoples daddies can hand em tons of cash- others get nothing? some can afford school/ some can't-- shit some people are just not as smart as the next????
Not that I ever said its a great system or agree with it when people have to live together in one world-- sometimes they need to help each other too. Isnt that what a society is about?
shit I would love to make 100k a year, where do I sign up???
I see myself as a fairly lucky person over here- a house, wife, healthy daughter, a few cars, a few toys.. and work my ass off too-- does that mean the guy who bakes my bread for me shouldn't be able to get any insurance and his family should have to starve if he would somehow get sick???? the average baker here gets paid before taxes around 1100 euros a month-- where do you go from there?-- don't tell me my neighbor is lazy- someone out there has to do the not so nice jobs too.

your posts are really VERY selfish-- I hope for you that noone in your family ever gets sick, looses their job-- not everyone lives in your pretty painted picture

and in the end-- as I posted in my other post-- it isn't exactly like how you put it out there to be.. there is the choice of private insurances and max levels you pay-- I don't really know any of that crap and am def. no expert in any of it.

I am definately not backing the whole socialist govt. thing at all-- there are tons of things I hate about it-and will one day be back in the U.S. - just made a post that the system here isnt all that bad as some make it out to be.