So Virginia bans O-Care

[Wiglaf]

I love how you guys are trying to compare this to welfare. Not gonna be a helpful sidetrack, especially if you are of the opinion that everyone in that program is just abusing it to be lazy.
You guys are totally fear-mongering. Statements like "you think it's high NOW, just wait" is the exact opposite of what the bill is designed to do.

[mrsleeve]

I love how you guys are trying to compare this to welfare. Not gonna be a helpful sidetrack, especially if you are of the opinion that everyone in that program is just abusing it to be lazy.
You guys are totally fear-mongering. Statements like "you think it's high NOW, just wait" is the exact opposite of what the bill is designed to do.

Are you really that dense?????? Ok if we get national H.C. sure you dont have to pay the premiums to the insurance company. You will just have a huge increase in taxes on goods, services, income and sir taxes and use fees to pay for it all. SO you will be paying that any way just to the govt, which has a 100% track record of miss management, waste, and inefficient use of our money. I think its funny that they have to start taxing to fund this debockel now and no spending for Universal care for 4 years. Great I get to pay for my insurance now and pay more taxes to prepay for my care 4 years from now at that same time.

SO tell me this, how is a system that takes 10 years of taxes, to pay for 6 years of spending going to be sustainable and viable long term?????


Sure I fully agree we need welfare systems to help those that are truly disenfranchised and need the temporary help (I am not heartless) but I stress highly TEMPORARY.

The system has decayed into the mess we have of cradle to grave hand outs.

this is just what will happen with O-care. You ever been to a welfare office or in unemployment line????? I have (I grew up poor and have a seasonal job), I dont want that to be my doctors office or my Hospital or ER.

[Hallen]

I love how you guys are trying to compare this to welfare. Not gonna be a helpful sidetrack, especially if you are of the opinion that everyone in that program is just abusing it to be lazy.
You guys are totally fear-mongering. Statements like "you think it's high NOW, just wait" is the exact opposite of what the bill is designed to do.

Well, first, I didn't see anybody compare it to Welfare, but I might have missed it in all these posts. Second, I think you're just projecting, and you're right. A single payer system pretty much is welfare. You cannot deny that a whole lot of the people who are chronically on wellfare are on it because they choose to be on it. If wellfare wasn't there, these people would be productive because they would be forced to be productive to survive. I don't mind giving somebody a hand up because that will eventually help all of us. But the handouts are more damaging than not doing anything.

The reason you could compare a single payer system is simple: those that can pay have to pay. Those who can pay a lot, have to pay a lot. Those that can't pay, get it for free courtesy of those who can pay. That's wellfare.

The current bill is a hodgepodge of ill conceived taxes and penalties designed to punish people.

Now, this is the main point being made here about the current bill, don't try to sidestep this: The current bill will do NOTHING to control the costs of health care. That's a fact.

It only muddies up the current insurance coverage that we do have. Why can't people understand this simple fact. Health Insurance is expensive for two reasons:
1) Health care is too expensive
The current bill does nothing to lower the costs. Therefore, insurance will continue to be expensive.

2) Government regulations that force insurance carriers to cover things that should not have to be covered.

Many insurance plan are required to cover every single doctor visit. That's stupid. If I want a cheaper plan that only covers catastrophic illness, I often can't get it because it isn't allowed. There is no competition across state lines guaranteeing that states with large risk pools will get cheaper insurance than states with smaller risk pools. The current bill does not address this at all. BTW, this state line law does not help the insurance companies at all. It makes doing business more expensive for them and they can't combine risk pools to drop the costs for everybody. The current bill does help those insurance companies that you all love to hate because it forces young, healthy people to buy health insurance whether they want it or not.

A single payer insurance system could actually work because it is the largest possible risk pool available and that's good. However it will only work well if everybody pays the same rates, not the same percentage of their earnings, the same rates. But you all know that won't happen.

I don't want to ever see somebody denied medical care (and that doesn't happen now, no matter what the pundits want you to think). But the honest truth is that the people who really get punished are the ones who can pay, but have to pay the entire inflated costs themselves. It is a horrible burden. I know, I've been there myself, and yes, I did pay all of it off.

The costs have got to be controlled. The way the democrats are attacking it will NOT control costs, it just shifts the burdens around. And when I say controlled, I don't mean regulation and price fixing and forced issues. We have to lower the barriers that create this artificial situation and let things get back to where they should be.

[Mr Two]

Jesus fucking christ.

To all that talk about its unfair to pay more taxes or shit when you are wealthier

Do you know why we have a progressive income tax?

First, take a look at this.

http://www.taxanalysts.com/www/featu...7?OpenDocument

Hey, why don't we cut their taxes some more?

The intent is that citizens pay what they are financially able. Z31maniac - that bottom 45% that you quoted as paying no income tax? How much money do you think they have left over after taking care of basic needs? Rent, insurance, food, ect. Compounding that, the poor pay more for basic shit, like food.

As far as the Government sucking at everything it does, and the person whining about how the government is taking over everything, this was posted on another forum when people were crying "socialism!"

"This morning I was awoken by my alarm clock powered by electricity generated by the public power monopoly regulated by the U.S. Department of Energy.

I then took a shower in the clean water provided by a municipal water utility.

After that, I turned on the TV to one of the FCC-regulated channels to see what the National Weather Service of the National Oceanographic and Atmospheric Administration determined the weather was going to be like, using satellites designed, built, and launched by the National Aeronautics and Space Administration.

I watched this while eating my breakfast of U.S. Department of Agriculture-inspected food and taking the drugs which have been determined as safe by the U.S. Food and Drug Administration.

At the appropriate time, as regulated by the U.S. Congress and kept accurate by the National Institute of Standards and Technology and the U.S. Naval Observatory, I get into my National Highway Traffic Safety Administration-approved automobile and set out to work on the roads build by the local, state, and federal Departments of Transportation, possibly stopping to purchase additional fuel of a quality level determined by the Environmental Protection Agency, using legal tender issued by the Federal Reserve Bank.

On the way out the door I deposit any mail I have to be sent out via the U.S. Postal Service and drop the kids off at the public school.

After spending another day not being maimed or killed at work thanks to the workplace regulations imposed by the Department of Labor and the Occupational Safety and Health administration, enjoying another two meals which again do not kill me because of the USDA, I drive my NHTSA car back home on the DOT roads, to my house which has not burned down in my absence because of the state and local building codes and Fire Marshal's inspection, and which has not been plundered of all its valuables thanks to the local police department.

And then I log on to the internet -- which was developed by the Defense Advanced Research Projects Administration -- and post on Freerepublic.com and Fox News forums about how SOCIALISM in medicine is BAD because the government can't do anything right."

How many of those do you want to privatize?

That said, where's the motherfucking public option?

[mikeedler]

Also, as for this "14% of my pay" in Germany crap. What horseshit. Somebody who makes 100k will pay a lot more than somebody who makes 20k and still gets the same amount of care?!?!?! What a joke! How is that "fair???" Just because somebody worked their ass off to make money, and the other person is a lazy ass, they get the same care?!?!?!? And that makes sense how?!@#?!?@

what is fair in this world??? that some peoples daddies can hand em tons of cash- others get nothing? some can afford school/ some can't-- shit some people are just not as smart as the next????
Not that I ever said its a great system or agree with it when people have to live together in one world-- sometimes they need to help each other too. Isnt that what a society is about?
shit I would love to make 100k a year, where do I sign up???
I see myself as a fairly lucky person over here- a house, wife, healthy daughter, a few cars, a few toys.. and work my ass off too-- does that mean the guy who bakes my bread for me shouldn't be able to get any insurance and his family should have to starve if he would somehow get sick???? the average baker here gets paid before taxes around 1100 euros a month-- where do you go from there?-- don't tell me my neighbor is lazy- someone out there has to do the not so nice jobs too.

your posts are really VERY selfish-- I hope for you that noone in your family ever gets sick, looses their job-- not everyone lives in your pretty painted picture

and in the end-- as I posted in my other post-- it isn't exactly like how you put it out there to be.. there is the choice of private insurances and max levels you pay-- I don't really know any of that crap and am def. no expert in any of it.

I am definately not backing the whole socialist govt. thing at all-- there are tons of things I hate about it-and will one day be back in the U.S. - just made a post that the system here isnt all that bad as some make it out to be.

[trent]

Isnt that what a society is about?

To an extent and yes my posts can be selfish, with good damn reason too: Everywhere I look, I see MY MONEY going to wasteful shit. Too many people COMPLETELY underestimate how much abuse and fraud there is in the system. I see it all first hand. There is NO REASON my money should be used to house ILLEGALS in the US prison system. There is NO REASON my money should be paying healthcare bills for somebody who is ILLEGAL in this country. There is NO REASON my money should be paying welfare for women who stay at home and have babies to make more money. There is NO REASON that foodstamps should be able to be used on trash food (snack foods like cheetos, soda, easy cheese, the list goes on of all the crap I see these people buying.) There is NO REASON for so much goverment waste (it is an entire issue, not just HC)....

Case in point (in cliffnotes):
-My father owns Section 8 apartments.
-These have to be "certified" Section 8 by the city.
-Inspector comes out and looks at the apartment, the refrigerator does not have "crisper" drawers.
-Inspector fails the apartment due to the refrigerator not having "crisper" drawers.
-Father realizes that a Section 8 apartment doesn't HAVE to even have a refrigerator.
-Father removes refrigerator from apartment.
-Inspector comes out and certifies apartment as Section 8 with no refrigerator.
-The city wastes its time and screws the people it is trying to help, as usual, since now the poor renters have to get their own refrigerator. Did the rent go down? Nope.
- 100% perfect example of waste.

I am sick of all the free handouts that the US government gives out for votes. My wife and I have worked extremely hard for our money and to have recession proof jobs.

However, this "sliding scale" is a joke. It just goes to show you, what could be next? Cable bill goes up for people who make over 100k? Waste/gas bill should cost more for people with over 100k? Should everything cost more just because you have "more" money to pay it? Hell no -- it is an incentive killer.

BTW, you get a $100k job working your ass off. That is exactly the attitude to NOT have. You don't just "sign-up" for a 100k job. You can easily go back to school and make over $100k here, in a few different professions.

[Hallen]

Jesus fucking christ.

To all that talk about its unfair to pay more taxes or shit when you are wealthier

Do you know why we have a progressive income tax?

First, take a look at this.

http://www.taxanalysts.com/www/featu...7?OpenDocument

Hey, why don't we cut their taxes some more?

The intent is that citizens pay what they are financially able.

And that's presicely the type of thinking that shows how well accepted its having the government included in every aspect of your life. That's simply not healthy.

The intent is to have people pay their fair share. It is most certainly NOT to have them pay what they are financially able to pay. The progressive income tax structure is seen as being fair for the most part, but it has many flaws too. But that isn't the point. The point is your misunderstanding of how things are supposed to work.

That chart they show in the story you link is exactly the point. As their marginal tax rates go down, they earn more (which means they pay more than they did before, just at a lower marginal rate. Figured I better spell that out for you). How do you think they earned more? Do you think they just wiped their ass and ended up with money on the toilet paper?? They frigging earned it. They earned it by providing value to a business somewhere. That business provided jobs and wealth to many people. When you lower the marginal tax rate, you encourage people to take risks, start businesses, compete, get out there an make a go of it, simply because the rewards are worth the risk. We all get wealthier for it.

As marginal tax rates go up, you discourage people from taking risks. We all get poorer for it. FDR proved without a shadow of a doubt that extremely high marginal tax rates, and regulated wage levels for workers, are extremely devastating to free enterprise and the economy as a whole. It does not work. I cannot stress that enough, or often enough apparently.

I am not arguing that government does not have a roll to play. Those safety organizations have by and far been a positive influence on society. However, they have huge flaws still, and that section 8 example is brilliant. It just shows how inept the government can be with this kind of thing. The post office is horribly inneficient, expensive, and slow to react to anything. Amtrak is another great example of the shit government provides. OSHA has been a huge help in identifying workplace hazards. It's also been a huge burden on small business with their outlandish, impractical and unreasonable requirements. The list goes on.

Just because the government is entrenched in your daily life does not make it right or good. You'll never understand until you have to fight through all the rules and regulations in order to get something done. You know what is necessary to make something safe. But the regulatory requirements don't. They are equally applied to everything within a category even if there is 0 risk of a problem. It costs businesses billions of dollars every year to comply with capricious and unnecessary regulations. Government simply can't administer things effectively enough. We all pay for this in higher prices for everything we buy. It's one of the reasons why the drugs you take are so damn expensive. The FDA is one of the poorest run agencies out there. Need I go on? Those are the bad things that we should be working at fixing instead of trying to add yet another entitlement program to the list.

[Wiglaf]

While we are on this, here's an idea you can feel free to bash apart:

I think the most fair would be a flat-tax, no deductions, loopholes, anything. Just reduce it until it's so fucking simple that nobody can squirm out of it.
If this is changed to a sales tax then even better, because even illegals and stock traders would be paying into it automatically buy buying things, and the average joe can save money easier by just not spending money. No room to squirm out by hiding income or any of that crap.

Then replace welfare, grants, all those misc social programs, and this complicated tax return shit with one simple monthly check that everyone (that legally files) gets, it is the same amount of money regardless of paygrade or how many rugrats you did or didn't pump out. This will be the "bracket adjustment" or whatever you want to call it despite brackets not existing anymore. All those offices and social workers are gone. This system in it's simplicity would be the most fair and efficient. Blind to disability, sob stories, "hardships", race, age, people trying to play the system, etc. It treats everyone the same. Someone who earned $400M pays the same % and got the same return checks as someone who earned $15k and has 12 mistakes to feed. tax rebates, incentives, all of that nonsense is gone. The actual amount of the rebate checks, and the tax % are the only two variables to adjust. If done carefully it could probly replace unemployment and social security as well.. putting more responsibility on the individual to save, but also making it easier by taking less money before it hits your pockets. And pretty much eliminating the overhead of those programs.

I also think the federal reserve has got to go. Going back to the gold standard, or at least a factor of it, is the only way to preserve a remotely sustainable economy. Pure gold standard is pretty much the only way to not have inflation. The way banks operate by creating money has us fundamentally fucked regardless of how any of our taxes and programs are configured.

[mar1t1me]

I am not arguing that government does not have a roll to play. Those safety organizations have by and far been a positive influence on society. However, they have huge flaws still, and that section 8 example is brilliant. It just shows how inept the government can be with this kind of thing. The post office is horribly inneficient, expensive, and slow to react to anything. Amtrak is another great example of the shit government provides. OSHA has been a huge help in identifying workplace hazards. It's also been a huge burden on small business with their outlandish, impractical and unreasonable requirements. The list goes on.

The underlying issue is that we have been conditioned to believe we can legislate risk from our lives. If something goes wrong, we immediately look for someone we can sue. The cost of this is why some medicines are costly, and why health care is outrageous. The cost of inevitable litigation is built right in!

Same goes for well-meaning things like OSHA. They start as common-sense approaches to safety, then the lawyers get hold of it and exploit every opportunity for their own profit. So then we get more regulations, almost always based on the outcome of a lawsuit.

You might enjoy what this guy has to say about it. Excessive litigation is a key component of why we can't get anything done in this country!

Amtrak is a bad example. They are largely at the mercy of the corporations upon whose rails their trains travel. All my experiences on Amtrak have largely been pleasant, though not exactly fast.

I do think it's funny how we're told we have a War on Terror in progress and that no stone is being left unturned to protect our country....never mind you can hop on an Amtrak train in the middle of the night-some stations I've visited in the lower 48 aren't even attended by humans....with little in the way of ID, pay for a ticket on board and stow your bag full of bombs that no one will search. You can take that train to within a few blocks of the Capitol and White House, or into Penn Station and detonate your dirty bomb and no one would know about it until it was done. There is ZERO security.

[ck_taft325is]

While we are on this, here's an idea you can feel free to bash apart:

I think the most fair would be a flat-tax, no deductions, loopholes, anything. Just reduce it until it's so fucking simple that nobody can squirm out of it.
If this is changed to a sales tax then even better, because even illegals and stock traders would be paying into it automatically buy buying things, and the average joe can save money easier by just not spending money. No room to squirm out by hiding income or any of that crap.

Then replace welfare, grants, all those misc social programs, and this complicated tax return shit with one simple monthly check that everyone (that legally files) gets, it is the same amount of money regardless of paygrade or how many rugrats you did or didn't pump out. This will be the "bracket adjustment" or whatever you want to call it despite brackets not existing anymore. All those offices and social workers are gone. This system in it's simplicity would be the most fair and efficient. Blind to disability, sob stories, "hardships", race, age, people trying to play the system, etc. It treats everyone the same. Someone who earned $400M pays the same % and got the same return checks as someone who earned $15k and has 12 mistakes to feed. tax rebates, incentives, all of that nonsense is gone. The actual amount of the rebate checks, and the tax % are the only two variables to adjust. If done carefully it could probly replace unemployment and social security as well.. putting more responsibility on the individual to save, but also making it easier by taking less money before it hits your pockets. And pretty much eliminating the overhead of those programs.

I also think the federal reserve has got to go. Going back to the gold standard, or at least a factor of it, is the only way to preserve a remotely sustainable economy. Pure gold standard is pretty much the only way to not have inflation. The way banks operate by creating money has us fundamentally fucked regardless of how any of our taxes and programs are configured.

You know, from the general tone of your posts, and mind you this is a personal opinion I've come to hold, you're a very ugly, narrow minded, unpleasant person. I hope for your sake you're just e-toughing it up a bit.

[Naplm00]

shut the fuck up.

you know how much i pay for health insurance? $ 80 a month.

if its so important to you, why dont YOU fucking buy it.

Uh if you read, I did...and I do now.

[LBJefferies]

I love how you guys are so quick to dismiss government (which I am ultimately not a big fan of either), but you will defend the corporations and the "free market" till the bitter end. The government and big business have become virtually indistinguishable in this country. Business executives run the government and use it to further their profit making agendas. The whole existence of corporations is due to the government and they wouldn't even exist without it.

[mrsleeve]

I love how you guys are so quick to dismiss government (which I am ultimately not a big fan of either), but you will defend the corporations and the "free market" till the bitter end. The government and big business have become virtually indistinguishable in this country. Business executives run the government and use it to further their profit making agendas. The whole existence of corporations is due to the government and they wouldn't even exist without it.

put the bong down


Yes corps have jumped into bed with the govt to gain favorable position. But they would be there with or with out the govt.

Do I like this fact no, the govt should not be involved in private enterprise. But this is the world we live in.

[LBJefferies]

Yes corps have jumped into bed with the govt to gain favorable position. But they would be there with or with out the govt.

NO THEY WOULDN'T!! Corporations exist in the way that they do because the government decided that they should be given the same rights as individuals.

[mrsleeve]

NO THEY WOULDN'T!! Corporations exist in the way that they do because the government decided that they should be given the same rights as individuals.

Yes large multinational all encompassing business have not been around making tons of money since before the founding of this country

your an idiot