So Virginia bans O-Care

[dinanm3atl]

Good for the commonwealth. Wonder if my state is entertaining this idea. I am sure some way to further shove it down our throats will be created.

[ck_taft325is]

I'll reiterate that this a personal view of mine and not one that I expect to be widely adopted. Its just a personal conviction I have. I feel that since I have been given more I should contribute more whenever and wherever I can. I have never believed that anyone should be a "slave" to anyone else.

I have a tendency to take a bit of an idealist view on things. I am hopeful that humans can someday move beyond our natural tendencies towards greed and self centered thinking.

I am also amazed that I didn't get torn to peices because of my last post. I felt like I was throwing a chunk of liberal meat out there and that the wolves would pounce! I appreciate those of you who have offered up what seem to be genuine well considered thoughts on these issues. Even if I disagree with you, I have great respect for anyone who has an opinion that is their own and not something they were told to think.

There's been worse personal convictions. Speaking individually is much different than speaking in regards to a society. Greed is at the heart. Self interest as well. Both to preserve, further and often times as we have tendancy towards, to our detriment.

[BlueBMW]

So, someone born with talent is in debt to those without? Essentially a slave to the more retarded masses? The guy with two arms in a civilization of one armed people owes everyone that extra arm and should and/or must do what those with one hand cannot? That, my good sir, is Slavery in one of it's most devious, dangerous and evil forms.

I'll reiterate that this a personal view of mine and not one that I expect to be widely adopted. Its just a personal conviction I have. I feel that since I have been given more I should contribute more whenever and wherever I can. I have never believed that anyone should be a "slave" to anyone else.

I have a tendency to take a bit of an idealist view on things. I am hopeful that humans can someday move beyond our natural tendencies towards greed and self centered thinking.

I am also amazed that I didn't get torn to peices because of my last post. I felt like I was throwing a chunk of liberal meat out there and that the wolves would pounce! I appreciate those of you who have offered up what seem to be genuine well considered thoughts on these issues. Even if I disagree with you, I have great respect for anyone who has an opinion that is their own and not something they were told to think.

[mrsleeve]

that the bulk of us citizens are not responsible enough to choose between buying a 11billion inch tv and caring for themselves.

I give you the epidemic of Credit card debt and the Sub prime mortgage fiasco. And all walks of consumer debt spiraling outta control beyond what one can afford, No not every one but you get the point

Or that national helath care wouldbe slow, or that every american does not deserve health care.

because every american does

Look at every other nation that has a National care its slow inefficient and crazy expensive. Just like every other aspect of any program or policy that any GOVT anywhere runs. Go read hallens posts again hes better at explaining this than I am (well I am too lazy to type that much too) .

How do you have a right to a service that is provided and not pay for it????

You are confusing your fundamental right to Life, with services to prolong it. Now I dont want to see anyone turned away for care just cuz they are poor. I dont want too see anyone that can be treated go with out, I am not heartless or compassionless. I want to see the system tweeked to make it more affordable for those that dont have the means to cover the bills as easily as I and others can. Like has been said many times over in this thread we dont have any issues with reform, or making the system better.

We have issues with this package that now includes education reform and all kinds of other shit. We have issues with the fact that this dose nothing to bring the costs down, or really help those that need it now or ever. Why is it that they have to start to tax us now to pay for it but no spending on any care what so ever for something like 4 years??? Let put it this way thats 10 years of taxing for 6 years of spending, thats not sustainable nor cost effective and efficient.

It infact will penalize me to the tune of 40% of what I am paying now with a tax on our plans that will be passed on to me and raise my monthly out lay directly and indirectly an additional 530 bucks a month and bring the total to 1860 a month (this dose not include all the other taxes that will be used to siphon funds outta the taxpayers and everyones pockets to pay as for it as well). Why do I have to pay that?? just because I have good H.I. that I work very hard to keep and pay for, in case something happens to me or the little woman. That = nothing more than theft and redistribution and that is wrong.

[ck_taft325is]

that the bulk of us citizens are not responsible enough to choose between buying a 11billion inch tv and caring for themselves. Or that national helath care wouldbe slow, or that every american does not deserve health care.

because every american does

No one deserves anything. Everyone works for what they get out of life. Life is only what you put into it. Sorry, but that's the hard line of life. Get used to it.

You're ignorant by choice and naive in nature if you can't see that no one deserves someone elses hard earned wages.

And AGAIN, no one here is saying health care doesn't have to be addressed. I've thought the health system should be addressed ages ago. And AGAIN, this is not the contention. The contention is in how the President and Democrats in general are going about it. The current bill will do NOTHING to help bring affordable health care to everyone. It'll just demand that you pay for it in advance so that some day, maybe, everyone will have coverage.

[Naplm00]

that the bulk of us citizens are not responsible enough to choose between buying a 11billion inch tv and caring for themselves. Or that national helath care wouldbe slow, or that every american does not deserve health care.

because every american does

[mrsleeve]

You make alot of assumptions about everyone who isnt you.

Where did I make any assumptions in that post about anyone???????

[ck_taft325is]

You make alot of assumptions about everyone who isnt you.

That's sort of the pot calling the kettle black.

[Naplm00]

Again lack of personal responsibility and buying that new 11tybillion inch TV rather than save the 2-3 months of cobra payments. Also right now the GOVT will pay up to 66% of your COBRA payment because of this lack of responsibility.





Yes you are right, Roof and food, are more important but only just slightly. You then go out every day pick up cans, hit up neighbors for side jobs, wash windows, eat spam and ramen, Mac & Cheese, Tuna Snot on toast, Shit on a Shingle, the list of cost cutting goes on and on. All in the name of keeping a roof up, food in the bellies, and H.I. paid up.

I am sorry I was raised with a very strong influence of my grandparents and Great Aunt and Uncle all grew up and lived through the depression, I guess some of it rubbed off. I know how to make a pigs tail taste good and get 2 meals outta it, not that I ever have, but I know how, Thank You Gma and Aunt Marge(RIP)


Why are you living in fear of the hospital??? Life is not fair, the world is a big scary place full of scary and bad shit that can hurt you, or can happen to you. No one ever said life was easy or that it should be, you have to pay to play.

OH and what makes you so special to DESERVE to have all the H.C. you want just handed to you with out the ability to pay for it and force the rest of us to pay your way???????




Ok then why is there long waits for a simple thing like a tooth extraction ( I know a Canadian that had to wait 2 weeks to get a severally impacted tooth pulled out and was in very bad pain. I had a wisdom tooth flare up and got it pulled in the same day that I called. With in the hour actually). Or why do those that have the means all come here for their care???? Or why is it that they all pay very very high taxes on every thing to pay for it all, and the systems are still going broke and have a lack of timely service????

You make alot of assumptions about everyone who isnt you.

[joshh]

If this bullshit passes I will be one that refuses to buy health care. They can shove it up their asses. Just because it's unconstitutional.

[ck_taft325is]

I didnt say that, the point is that most americans..the overwhelming majority were to be put out of work that they wouldnt havbe enough to survive let alone Cobra payments.

No matter how well prepared you are, if you have kids and a mortgage and you are laid off, keeping the roof over thier heads and food in the mouths is more important.

We should have the freedom to live without fear... fears like a hospital is going to bone us if we get sick without insurance for whatever reason OR that is beyond what we are covered for. I know that I deserve this at least.


And srsly if the canuks and the belgians can do this, why cant we figure it out?

There's no way you can live without fear. That whole sentiment boggles my mind, man. Maybe I'm misunderstanding a bit, but to live without fear is to be dead in my book. Fear is part of life and the Government, nor any other person can address an individual's fears.

I totally agree that when you're laid off, health insurance falls to the bottom of the list after rent/mortgage, food, and the like. I've been laid off now for a year and nearly 5 months. Health insurance has been cancelled and like I've said before, I grew up without health insurance. I don't always see the need for H.I. but now that I have a kid, when the money comes in, it will be had. My personal belief on this is that you don't need H.I. but you better be good at saving. The way I look at it, to some degree it's betting against yourself. While life happens, and trust me, I know life happens better than most, it's something that when you have the money for it, do it. For some, this is not an option as they need health care to live. This is very, very hard. There are foundations and there are ways to go about it.

Let me digress for a moment on this premise... there is NO arguement from ANYONE here that health care costs, how it works, etc, etc... needs to be addressed. We all, each of us, agree on this. We are contending solely based on the how. The current health care "reform" bill will not help those needing help. It will catastrophically help those that do not need the help in the above said premise. For example, my buddie's Mom has debilitating health issues. Issues that were supposed to keep her from breathing correctly, ever having the chance of walking, severe pain for her whole entire life... you get the picture. She has insane amounts of prescriptions just to get out of bed. She's lived 55+ years and holds a steady part time job. She's also married to one of the West Coast incident administraters for the FFA. They make easily over $180,000 a year. While her health is not getting better and she's due for her NINTH (count 'em, 9th) knee and hip surgery/replacement.

Now think, with as much as she's dependant and needs State/Federal help, and believe me, I'm all for it, how is this health care reform going to lower her costs? Not to mention how much they make, they pay quite a bit in taxes as it is. Without their dependants, they would get destroyed yearly in taxes. I realize, my example above is a bit of both. It's a prime example of how I feel she does, to some degree, abuse the current system yet is quite frankly, dependant upon it. It's easy for someone to say we should help her - but no one's throwing dollers her way? It's easy for someone to say she's abusing the system - but she does to seem extent need the help.

This is where actual Health Care Reform/restructering, etc, can very much benefit everyone. What Obama-Care doesn't address is these issues. It's trying to put a bandaide on a bullet wound. Sure, it's a huge bandaide, but it's still just a temperary solution that will cause permanent problems in it's current form.

There was more I wanted to say on everything here, but I realize I've been typing for a good 9 minutes straight. It's lengthy enough as it is.

[mrsleeve]

I didnt say that, the point is that most americans..the overwhelming majority were to be put out of work that they wouldnt havbe enough to survive let alone Cobra payments.

Again lack of personal responsibility and buying that new 11tybillion inch TV rather than save the 2-3 months of cobra payments. Also right now the GOVT will pay up to 66% of your COBRA payment because of this lack of responsibility.

No matter how well prepared you are, if you have kids and a mortgage and you are laid off, keeping the roof over thier heads and food in the mouths is more important.

Yes you are right, Roof and food, are more important but only just slightly. You then go out every day pick up cans, hit up neighbors for side jobs, wash windows, eat spam and ramen, Mac & Cheese, Tuna Snot on toast, Shit on a Shingle, the list of cost cutting goes on and on. All in the name of keeping a roof up, food in the bellies, and H.I. paid up.

I am sorry I was raised with a very strong influence of my grandparents and Great Aunt and Uncle all grew up and lived through the depression, I guess some of it rubbed off. I know how to make a pigs tail taste good and get 2 meals outta it, not that I ever have, but I know how, Thank You Gma and Aunt Marge(RIP)

We should have the freedom to live without fear... fears like a hospital is going to bone us if we get sick without insurance for whatever reason OR that is beyond what we are covered for. I know that I deserve this at least.

Why are you living in fear of the hospital??? Life is not fair, the world is a big scary place full of scary and bad shit that can hurt you, or can happen to you. No one ever said life was easy or that it should be, you have to pay to play.

OH and what makes you so special to DESERVE to have all the H.C. you want just handed to you with out the ability to pay for it and force the rest of us to pay your way???????

And srsly if the canuks and the belgians can do this, why cant we figure it out?

Ok then why is there long waits for a simple thing like a tooth extraction ( I know a Canadian that had to wait 2 weeks to get a severally impacted tooth pulled out and was in very bad pain. I had a wisdom tooth flare up and got it pulled in the same day that I called. With in the hour actually). Or why do those that have the means all come here for their care???? Or why is it that they all pay very very high taxes on every thing to pay for it all, and the systems are still going broke and have a lack of timely service????

[Naplm00]

I didnt say that, the point is that most americans..the overwhelming majority were to be put out of work that they wouldnt havbe enough to survive let alone Cobra payments.

No matter how well prepared you are, if you have kids and a mortgage and you are laid off, keeping the roof over thier heads and food in the mouths is more important.

We should have the freedom to live without fear... fears like a hospital is going to bone us if we get sick without insurance for whatever reason OR that is beyond what we are covered for. I know that I deserve this at least.


And srsly if the canuks and the belgians can do this, why cant we figure it out?

[ck_taft325is]

Just because he's "one of the few" doesn't mean that it's the Government's job to be Robin Hood of the Health Care system.

[Naplm00]

you are one of the few