So Virginia bans O-Care

[LBJefferies]

Yes large multinational all encompassing business have not been around making tons of money since before the founding of this country

your an idiot

Corporations as they are today did not exist until the late 19th century.

Actually it might even have been later.

[mrsleeve]

Corporations as they are today did not exist until the late 19th century.

Ok I can see where you are going with that.

Why is that the case. OH yeah the GOVT stuck its nose in where it dose not belong. Some regulation is necessary but very very little. in fact the less the better.

My original point was that big business would be here with or with out govt involvement

[Wiglaf]

You know, from the general tone of your posts, and mind you this is a personal opinion I've come to hold, you're a very ugly, narrow minded, unpleasant person. I hope for your sake you're just e-toughing it up a bit.

I do have to admit I am becoming quite irritated with the issue in general. Sorry if I said anything personal. This particular thread isn't too bad but I do come across a lot of people that literally think that we are in the middle of a SOSHLIST TAKEOVER, really most of the reasons people seem to be against reform is based on fear and misinformation. There's a lot of people bashing the government with the notion that they can't get anything right but I'm not one of them. Yes virtually ever aspect could stand to run more efficiently, but the job gets done.

Not sure why you picked the tax idea+gov reduction as a reason to call me narrow minded and ugly.
I look at it like this: The simplest solution that will work is the best solution.

[Hallen]

I love how you guys are so quick to dismiss government (which I am ultimately not a big fan of either), but you will defend the corporations and the "free market" till the bitter end. The government and big business have become virtually indistinguishable in this country. Business executives run the government and use it to further their profit making agendas. The whole existence of corporations is due to the government and they wouldn't even exist without it.

Don't go there. I've never said that. I am for a free market. But large corporations are really free market either. Sure, they're going to exist. But like alluded to before, the main reason a lot of these big corps are still in business is because of government interventions, subsidies, special laws, etc. I hate that kind of stuff too.

I also think that most publicly traded companies have lost their way in the night and there's no fixing it that I can see. They are victims of their own stupidity and the stock market has a lot to do with that. They are beholden to their stock price, quarter by quarter, and nothing else. They aren't interested in making great products. They aren't interested in the long term viability of the company. They aren't really interested in customers. They just want to keep pushing the stock prices up "for their investors". It's bullshit of course. They keep pushing the stock prices up because that's how a lot of their compensation is packaged, stock options.

Yes, you want to have your stock remain at a good price so that if you need to generate more capital, you can, and so that you don't get bought out by somebody else. But honestly, I can't understand why they do the incredibly stupid crap that publicly traded corporations do just to push up their stock price at the end of the quarter. It's devastating to our ability to really make good money in the long term. It's devastating to the economy on a certain level. It makes people hate to work for these companies. It makes people hate to buy from them too. It's more important to make something cheaply than it is to make something of quality.

Anyway, I work for a publicly traded company and I see this stupid shit every day.

I am for the free market, but that doesn't mean I support morons who do a lousy job running a company all in the name of the "investors". There's plenty to be fixed there too, and honestly, a truly free market would be one way of doing it.

[LBJefferies]

They are beholden to their stock price, quarter by quarter, and nothing else. They aren't interested in making great products. They aren't interested in the long term viability of the company. They aren't really interested in customers. They just want to keep pushing the stock prices up "for their investors".

This right here is my real problem. It's not that I am against business and innovation and making money. It's the fact that these multinational corporations get so large and have to answer to so many stockholders, that profit becomes the only objective. When you have thousands of people who own stock in a company, you can't ask each one of them if their product should be manufactured using american labor or chinese labor, nothing would ever get done because no one would ever agree. But what everyone can agree on is profit. So these corporations just go with the cheapest labor and it keeps the shareholders happy. They don't stop and consider the bigger social, health, environmental, etc. issues because it's not profitable to do so. Those things are just externalities which the people and the government has to deal with. You simply cannot make profit the sole factor in decision making and that is what these corporations do.

I think Bill Gates is a great man. He worked hard for his money and business has been good for him and now hes giving all his money back. This is fantastic. But Bill Gates is an individual and he is not solely driven by making profit. He has a wife, children, hobbies, passions, beliefs, desires, a sense of community, etc. all of which play a role in his business decisions. A corporation, granted all the rights of an individual under the law, does not have any of these other considerations. Profit is the only consideration of a corporation and this is why they are inherently evil.

This is the supreme court case that determined corporations to have the same legal status as individual persons. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Santa_C...cific_Railroad

Prior to this, government and business were much more intertwined. The East India Company for example (yes I know that it's not an American company), was largely controlled by the British government and was completely in charge of the economy and government of British India. So, corporations as we know them today are only just over a century old.

[Wiglaf]

I agree with you guys there.. and a truly free market would still have companies like this, perhaps worse if not for anti-trust and monopoly laws.
The stock market itself and it's rules/regulations is probably more to blame than the companies and how large they get, including a huge amount of startups that have no other purpose than to get investment money, among other schemes of negative value.
A single change in the taxing of stocks could have a huge impact here, for better or worse depending on your point of view. Personally I would rather see the market taxed more and companies themselves taxed less, because they really make it painful to hire someone.

[joshh]

Finally a state doing a right thing.

[Hallen]

This right here is my real problem. It's not that I am against business and innovation and making money. It's the fact that these multinational corporations get so large and have to answer to so many stockholders, that profit becomes the only objective. When you have thousands of people who own stock in a company, you can't ask each one of them if their product should be manufactured using american labor or chinese labor, nothing would ever get done because no one would ever agree. But what everyone can agree on is profit. So these corporations just go with the cheapest labor and it keeps the shareholders happy. They don't stop and consider the bigger social, health, environmental, etc. issues because it's not profitable to do so. Those things are just externalities which the people and the government has to deal with. You simply cannot make profit the sole factor in decision making and that is what these corporations do.

I think Bill Gates is a great man. He worked hard for his money and business has been good for him and now hes giving all his money back. This is fantastic. But Bill Gates is an individual and he is not solely driven by making profit. He has a wife, children, hobbies, passions, beliefs, desires, a sense of community, etc. all of which play a role in his business decisions. A corporation, granted all the rights of an individual under the law, does not have any of these other considerations. Profit is the only consideration of a corporation and this is why they are inherently evil.

This is the supreme court case that determined corporations to have the same legal status as individual persons. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Santa_C...cific_Railroad

Prior to this, government and business were much more intertwined. The East India Company for example (yes I know that it's not an American company), was largely controlled by the British government and was completely in charge of the economy and government of British India. So, corporations as we know them today are only just over a century old.

You're almost on the right track here. I would disregard the legal status thing. Part of the reason for that was so that it is easier for the government to tax corporations and for contract law to work. It isn't really about treating a corporation as a person when it comes to civil rights.

It's not really all about profit, not at all. If it were about profits exclusively, then publicly traded corporations wouldn't do as many dumb things as they do now. An example is this: Near the end of the quarter when we haven't quite hit our targets, our sales reps are told to go out and start making deals with our dealers. We offer them discounts, sometimes big discounts, in order to move more product. It isn't like we have a glut of inventory we need to get rid of or something material like that. No, it's because we have not yet hit targets and if we don't hit our revenue target for the quarter, the stock price will go down. So, we strive to hit that number no matter what. Our dealers aren't stupid, they know this is going to happen. So, they hold off buying product for their inventory until we come to them with the discounts. They make more money, we make less, but we hit our revenue numbers. Or profits take a dump, but the market often doesn't care about profits, they key in on revenues. It's idiotic.

Profit is a good motivator, profit at all costs can be devastating. The free market does a pretty good job of policing that kind of thing. Sooner or later, unscrupulous companies who rape customers and employees for the sole reason of short term profits, generally don't stay in business very long. Companies who strive to maximize long term profits, generally stay around and generally provide good products at fair prices. And, they generally treat their employees much better since one of the keys to long term viability is employee satisfaction.

What we all have to remember is that all corporations are just collections of people. Business ethics are important and must be reinforced continually. Unfortunately, the forces of the stock market have a tendency to drive irrational behavior in companies. The stock market is a good thing overall since it can drive a lot of capital for business expansion. That's good. However, the mindset of the market is always on short term gains, and that's were we run into this kind of quarter to quarter mentality that is very damaging.

[mrsleeve]

Well Farbin is in luck, we can add Idaho to the list as well, their governor has even signed it all ready

http://www.cnn.com/2010/POLITICS/03/...nge/index.html
1st few lines

Idaho on Wednesday became the first state to pass a law saying no thanks to part of President Obama's health care proposal.

The Idaho Health Care Freedom Act says in part, "every person within the state of Idaho is and shall be free to choose or decline to choose any mode of securing health care services without penalty or threat of penalty."

[Ryan Stewart]

Corporations as they are today did not exist until the late 19th century.

Actually it might even have been later.

With respect to the term "corporation" yes, with respect to the type and size of entity, way false.

[BlueBMW]

Guess I should throw a few cents in here too :D

First off, I'm glad everyone has very strong opinions on these issues, this is what makes America great! Discussions like these are good.

My thoughts... I hold a view (in a minority probably) that if I am fortunate to be gifted with a better mind, or a better body, or better abilities in life, then I should contribute a greater portion to society as a whole. I have no problem assisting someone who is less able than me. While certainly there are abuses that take place in systems that offer benefits to people at the expense of other people, I feel there are a lot of people who legitimately need assistance. And while there are plenty of people at the bottom taking free benefits that dont deserve them, I also feel there are plenty of wealthy people who also take advantage of people (Enron and the like)

That said, here is my position in life. I'm 25, I work at a dealer as a technician. I make a decent income, but overall I am fairly disappointed in my work. My income dropped about 5% 2009 over 2008. My company reported that their profits were up 5% from 2008 to 2009, yet during annual evaluations I was informed that due to the poor economy raises would not be given out. Add this to an approximate 20% cut on warranty pay from BMW at the beginning of 2009, a lot of us technicians are struggling. So while our company profits were up, incomes of employees dropped. The line in answer to this is simply "just be happy you still have a job" And while we are happy to have a job, it feels like the company is using the down economy to take advantage of us employees. Also note, our work day has been lengthened and our work week now includes saturday. Even with the extra time at work, my income is still down. I am frustrated working hard for a company that values profit over caring for its employees.

Next point....

I used to be pretty much in favor of letting free market dictate itself, but again and again I see proof that companies cannot be left alone. The banks proved very evidently that they cannot responsibly run themselves. Greed took over and large profits were made ultimately at the expense of all of us. And while many oppose government regulation, I am afraid that some companies simply cannot run responsibly without regulation. I equate these companies to being like children. Children need rules and structure growing up. Without rules and regulations, you wont have maturity and responsibility.

I also look to history. My father explained to me that when he was growing up banks were very simple. If you saved your money you would receive about 5% interest from the bank. If you borrowed from that bank, you would pay about 9% interest. The bank made a modest profit and the banker was still your neighbor, well off but not super wealthy. Today if you get 1% interest on savings you are doing quite well, and banks charge upwards of 35%+ on loans. Yet banks are struggling to be profitable? I find this difficult to explain.

Another point, some statistics I viewed on an ABC world news broadcast (maybe liberal maybe not you decide) They simply stated that personal incomes have increased 20% over the last 20 years. During that same time education has increased 43%, housing 54%, and health care 155%. I find those numbers alarming since I ultimately see myself in the middle class (which is rapidly falling into the lower class)

My last point... when I hear that taxes are too high on the wealthy, I look at the history of taxation from the last 100 years. Did you know that the top tax bracket was over 90% only 50 years ago? While that seems pretty high even for someone as liberal as me, it makes the 35% tax bracket seem quite low. How many more tax cuts should be made really?

A link to these top tax brackets if anyone is curious...

http://www.truthandpolitics.org/top-rates.php

Anyways, in reaction to these things I am doing something. I am currently going to school in the evenings for an eventual engineering degree from which I intend to pursue alternative energy technology. I hope to design / implement alternate sources of energy (solar, wind, hep, geothermal, wave, fission*) to replace fossil fuels. I even hope to someday convert my little 318is to an electric driveline. All this because I hope to do something that contributes something positive to society as a whole.

Ok I'm done (guess that was a few bucks worth, not just a few cents) :D

[Hallen]

Guess I should throw a few cents in here too :D

Ok I'm done (guess that was a few bucks worth, not just a few cents) :D

Those are good observations. I think all of us who work for bigger companies (or for partners of bigger companies) have all taken it in the short to a certain extent.

However, looks are deceiving.

My company also increased profits year over year, while freezing salaries and laying off a lot of people. You wonder how that can be. It's pretty simple when you look at the numbers. Revenues were down considerably. Profits were up. The only way that can happen is to reduce expenses. That's exactly what all these companies did. They reduced expenses by slashing travel budgets, reducing advertising, reducing or freezing pay for employees, and by laying off employees. It's a self defeating strategy, but it ends up looking good to the markets. Yep, that's right, it comes back to stock prices a lot of the time.

That kind of activity also makes the recovery take longer because capacity is greatly reduced. Lead times for parts to make our products have doubled in some cases. We've run out of parts, can't make new stuff, even though we have buyers lined up. But since everybody else did the same things, nobody can deliver what they want to. And it didn't have to be that way, that's the sad part.

You really should understand the whole banking thing better before diving off into the black hole of more regulations. It's precisely because of those regulations that a lot of this stuff happens. It's a very complicated thing. You are also not pointing out personal responsibility in all of this. Customers of those banks also made killings off of all of this. Many borrowers were grossly irresponsible as well.

A certain level of regulation is required. Those regulations should define what is illegal. Then, aggressively pursue violations. Unfortunately, that second part is one of those areas where our government sucks. Please, don't fall in and blindly support "more regulations" that's usually not the answer and even though it sounds good, it's usually the wrong thing to do.

And my last point about the banks. They are by no means governed by the free market now, and haven't been since the great depression. The web of regulations, requirements, safety nets, and virtually guaranteed government bailouts make our banking system much more closely aligned with a pure governmental system than it does a free market system. So don't blame the free market for what has happened with the banks over the last few years, it simply isn't true.

Yes, I know all about FDR's monstrous taxes. They almost killed this country. Those taxes are one of the reasons the great depression lasted 10 years longer than it should have. Don't punish successful people just because you don't think they pay enough in taxes. They already do pay too much. Just as I pay too much and you pay too much. Government is bloated, irresponsible, corrupt, and inefficient. We could all be paying half of what we pay now and there would be enough money to run all these welfare programs AND fund all the military might that we could possibly want. But since it isn't that way, we keep getting gouged. It's a real economic killer. Don't ever buy off on the idea that "the rich can afford to pay a little more", of course they can afford it, that isn't the point. The point is that it isn't necessary, and it isn't fair, and it hurts all of us. Jealousy is a terrible thing. The real truth is that government wants to continue to expand, it's the nature of the beast. They want to fund it the easy way by taking money from the minority, and promising the great things they'll do with that money to the majority. It is discrimination, and it is wrong.

Good for you for investing in yourself and going to school. The best contribution you can make to society is to be productive, excel at what you do, raise and care for a good family, and make sure your family is provided for. That's the best way to contribute to society. If you want to make a big name for yourself, yeah, go out and invent the Mr. Fusion, but honestly, the best thing to do is what I have already said.

[ck_taft325is]

Guess I should throw a few cents in here too :D

First off, I'm glad everyone has very strong opinions on these issues, this is what makes America great! Discussions like these are good.

My thoughts... I hold a view (in a minority probably) that if I am fortunate to be gifted with a better mind, or a better body, or better abilities in life, then I should contribute a greater portion to society as a whole. I have no problem assisting someone who is less able than me. While certainly there are abuses that take place in systems that offer benefits to people at the expense of other people, I feel there are a lot of people who legitimately need assistance. And while there are plenty of people at the bottom taking free benefits that dont deserve them, I also feel there are plenty of wealthy people who also take advantage of people (Enron and the like)

That said, here is my position in life. I'm 25, I work at a dealer as a technician. I make a decent income, but overall I am fairly disappointed in my work. My income dropped about 5% 2009 over 2008. My company reported that their profits were up 5% from 2008 to 2009, yet during annual evaluations I was informed that due to the poor economy raises would not be given out. Add this to an approximate 20% cut on warranty pay from BMW at the beginning of 2009, a lot of us technicians are struggling. So while our company profits were up, incomes of employees dropped. The line in answer to this is simply "just be happy you still have a job" And while we are happy to have a job, it feels like the company is using the down economy to take advantage of us employees. Also note, our work day has been lengthened and our work week now includes saturday. Even with the extra time at work, my income is still down. I am frustrated working hard for a company that values profit over caring for its employees.

Next point....

I used to be pretty much in favor of letting free market dictate itself, but again and again I see proof that companies cannot be left alone. The banks proved very evidently that they cannot responsibly run themselves. Greed took over and large profits were made ultimately at the expense of all of us. And while many oppose government regulation, I am afraid that some companies simply cannot run responsibly without regulation. I equate these companies to being like children. Children need rules and structure growing up. Without rules and regulations, you wont have maturity and responsibility.

I also look to history. My father explained to me that when he was growing up banks were very simple. If you saved your money you would receive about 5% interest from the bank. If you borrowed from that bank, you would pay about 9% interest. The bank made a modest profit and the banker was still your neighbor, well off but not super wealthy. Today if you get 1% interest on savings you are doing quite well, and banks charge upwards of 35%+ on loans. Yet banks are struggling to be profitable? I find this difficult to explain.

Another point, some statistics I viewed on an ABC world news broadcast (maybe liberal maybe not you decide) They simply stated that personal incomes have increased 20% over the last 20 years. During that same time education has increased 43%, housing 54%, and health care 155%. I find those numbers alarming since I ultimately see myself in the middle class (which is rapidly falling into the lower class)

My last point... when I hear that taxes are too high on the wealthy, I look at the history of taxation from the last 100 years. Did you know that the top tax bracket was over 90% only 50 years ago? While that seems pretty high even for someone as liberal as me, it makes the 35% tax bracket seem quite low. How many more tax cuts should be made really?

A link to these top tax brackets if anyone is curious...

http://www.truthandpolitics.org/top-rates.php

Anyways, in reaction to these things I am doing something. I am currently going to school in the evenings for an eventual engineering degree from which I intend to pursue alternative energy technology. I hope to design / implement alternate sources of energy (solar, wind, hep, geothermal, wave, fission*) to replace fossil fuels. I even hope to someday convert my little 318is to an electric driveline. All this because I hope to do something that contributes something positive to society as a whole.

Ok I'm done (guess that was a few bucks worth, not just a few cents) :D

So, someone born with talent is in debt to those without? Essentially a slave to the more retarded masses? The guy with two arms in a civilization of one armed people owes everyone that extra arm and should and/or must do what those with one hand cannot? That, my good sir, is Slavery in one of it's most devious, dangerous and evil forms.

I don't want to come off as hostile. Please note that. But that bolded statement alone gave me a fright. Really, truly, think about that view point.

The issue ultimately comes down to "greed". Concurances? Now, if we all think, or the majority thinks that greed is in fact the heart of the problem, how is this solved by the Government? It would be naive to think this with any real conviction. People are greedy. Rich or poor. People that believe someone else should pull their load because they are stronger are just a different type of greedy. People can be greedy on both sides of the aisle and either rich or poor. Again, I want to reiterate, greed.

Wealth does not mean you owe to those without. Strength, health, wisdom, ability, talent or intelligence do not mean you are in debt to a society with any of the lacking. To believe so is to give up reason and logic and marry slavery to a greedy society. Let's say things get worse. Let's say they get so bad that the majority of people cannot afford food. You are one of them. And your family. All malnourished. Now, let's say someone comes to you offering you a job for food because you are broad shouldered and have a powerful need to eat. Now, you bust your ass and get your money. Well, by your standards, you have broad shoulders and the ability to bust your ass (Note: Ability translates to need, luck, etc etc). Now say society comes along and see's you on your way home with bread, milk and eggs. Just the basics. All your money you've earned is gone. Your wife and kids will be over joyed. Then you realize you have the ability above seemingly everyone else to make a buck and buy eggs, milk and bread. Are they (society) owed your hard work because you have the ability?

[Naplm00]

Should have made those COBRA payments huh. Way to go for personal responsibility

Totally missed this comment on the first page. I would have loved to signed up for cobra.

But my choice was paying rent on time and food or Cobra.

If i remember correctly my monthly payment would be around $470 after they added the 2% fee



The recent Daily show quote I found funny: "I would rather die of a curable disease while homeless than be forced to live healthily in the post-freedom hellscape envisioned by this bill"

[E30 Cabrio]

doesn't Germany have almost 20% sales tax too?

Germany has one of the highest rates of taxation in the world.

From memory, the average working person there pays out about 37% in taxes.

"I don't know what's in it, you don't know what's in it, but everyone can evaluate it after it passes..."

-Barack Obama last night on FNC talking about his health care plan.