27 years biatch

[rwh11385]

If you want to quit drinking, AA is the ONLY proven place to go.

What "proof" do you have besides the few people you know that are still around. What % do they represent of all who have ever entered the program where you go? How many people died from alcohol while in AA, or from suicide?

I can tell you this: The statistics are very against anyone attempting to get sober. Few make it past their first week. Fewer still make it past their first month...and so on...very few make it past their first year, much less decade.

Studies of alcohol abusers in community settings show that they frequently outgrow their drinking problems on their own. Psychiatrist George Vaillant was part of a Harvard study that followed a group of men for four decades, beginning in adolescence. In his 1983 book The Natural History of Alcoholism, Dr. Vaillant reported that over 60 percent of those who overcame their alcoholism didn't enter any kind of treatment, including AA.

Later in the decade, research by Kaye Fillmore, Ph.D., of the University of California, San Francisco, found that from 60 to 80 percent of problem drinkers stopped abusing alcohol, usually without treatment.

Statistically speaking, consider the enormous numbers of people who have tried AA, first to "dry out" and then tried "moderation" and then "dropped out" of AA...the evidence is clear..."problem drinkers" do NOT respond well to "moderation".

Numbers? or are you just talking out of your ass...?

When you are at an A.A. meeting, you are in a self-selecting group.

* A bunch of people went to a Baptist church for years.
* During those years, many of the women got pregnant and had babies.
* That proves it: Going to Baptist churches causes women to get pregnant and have babies.

Not!

That goofy logic is the same logic as A.A. uses to insist that it's a proven fact that going to A.A. meetings and doing the Twelve Steps causes people to quit drinking.

Many A.A. members are confusing causation with correlation, or causation with coincidence. They fail to see that they go to A.A. meetings because they want to quit drinking, not that they want to quit drinking because they go to A.A. meetings.

Luke, you try to use your selection-biased group to rationalize AA working but it also creates invalid circular logic:

1. Someone will be counted as an A.A. member only if he quits drinking and stays sober.
2. A.A. obviously works great, because so many of its members are sober.

[rwh11385]

If I knew more about how to dig up good statistics, I would find out how many people who were once cited for DUI (meaning they HAD to do some kind of treatment) ended up dead, due to alcohol, either cirrhosis (or other alcohol related medical issues), fatal drunk driving (or how many others did they kill).

Maybe some smart college graduate could find some statistics to go with that.

Well, if you don't know how, then leave it to a professional...

A controlled study of the effectiveness of Alcoholics Anonymous was conducted in San Diego in the mid-nineteen-sixties. It is described in "A Controlled Experiment on the Use of Court Probation for Drunk Arrests", by Keith S. Ditman, M.D., George C. Crawford, LL.B., Edward W. Forgy, Ph.D., Herbert Moskowitz, Ph.D., and Craig MacAndrew, Ph.D., in the American Journal of Psychiatry.1

In the study, 301 public drunkenness offenders were sentenced by the court to one of three "treatment programs". The offenders were randomly divided into three groups:

* a control group that got no treatment at all,
* a second group that was sent to a professional alcoholism treatment clinic,
* and a third group that was sent to Alcoholics Anonymous.

All of the subjects were followed for at least a full year following conviction. Surprisingly, the no-treatment group did the best, and Alcoholics Anonymous did the worst, far worse than simply receiving no treatment at all. When the rates of re-arrest for public drunkenness were calculated, the following results were obtained:

Number of Rearrests Among 241 Offenders in Three Treatment Groups
Treatment Group NO re-as Re-a Once Re-a 2 or more Total
No treatment 32 (44%) 14 (19%) 27 (37%) 73
Professional clinic 26 (32%) 23 (28%) 33 (40%) 82
Alcoholics Anonymous 27 (31%) 19 (22%) 40 (47%) 86


Kind of convenient they don't keep tabs so no one could find out their [lack of] success rate.

In every category, the people who got no treatment at all fared better than the people who got A.A. "treatment". Based on the records of re-arrests, only 31% of the A.A.-treated clients were deemed successful, while 44% of the "untreated" clients were successful. Clearly, Alcoholics Anonymous "treatment" had a detrimental effect. That means that A.A. had a success rate of less than zero. ...

And the A.A. people got rearrested more often after many months of A.A. training -- not in the beginning. The rate of rearrests was the same for the no-treatment and A.A. groups during the first month of treatment (22%), but the A.A. group's rearrest rate increased later, after months of A.A. indoctrination.

A 1999 study of Texas' correctional substance abuse treatment programs found that those who participated in an in-prison [Twelve-Step] program had the same recidivism rates as non-participants. Although those who completed the program did better than untreated offenders, those who entered but did not complete the program did worse. Moreover, probationers enrolled in treatment in Texas had an overall higher recidivism rate than non-participants.

Another study also had 29% death rate for AA members after 8 years.

The A.A.-treated group, the "Clinic sample", with the death rate of 29%, had the highest death rate of any kind of program, significantly higher than all of the other programs.

Compare that to the Dupont study of its employees and death rates: Known alcoholics 3.2% per year
Recovered alcoholics 2.5% per year
Suspected alcoholics 1.8% per year
Non-alcoholics 0.74 to 0.86% per year

8 years of all known alcoholics is still lower than the study of AA effectiveness!!

about 5% remain in AA as long as a year, according to AA's own surveys.

The two randomized studies in which AA treatment was assigned found AA to yield worse outcomes than other forms of treatment — or no treatment at all. (See Brandsma et al., The Outpatient Treatment of Alcoholism: A Review and Comparative Study, Baltimore: University Park Press, 1980; Ditman et al., "A controlled study on the use of court probation for drunk arrests," American Journal of Psychiatry, 124:160-163, 1967.) But Walsh et al. ("A randomized trial of treatment options for alcohol-abusing workers," The New England Journal of Medicine, 325:775-782, 1991) allowed alcoholics limited choices, and those who chose AA still did worst (about as bad as those assigned to AA).

perhaps part of the problem:

Finally, AA has introduced a strong degree of irrationality, intolerance and hatred into the alcoholism field. AA attendees, who dominate treatment in the United States (more so than anywhere else in the world) as a group do not accept alternative treatments, alternative goals (such as moderation), and alternative providers (those without AA backgrounds). Even today, their role in alcoholism treatment is repressive and totalitarian, and continues to retard progress in dealing with alcoholism in an effective, sensible way that respects the freedom and conscience of the individual.

rated only those studies that had randomly assigned alcoholics to at least one comparison group in addition to the treatment being evaluated. A total of 219 studies met the criteria.

Forty-three treatments were ranked, although 13 of them had too few studies to be definitively rated. Brief interventions had the highest score, followed by social skills training. At the bottom of the list in effectiveness were general alcoholism counseling and educational lectures and films about alcoholism. AA received the lowest score among the 13 treatments inadequately tested. Miller et al. were quick to note that the treatments with the worst clinical records are almost universally the ones used by American alcoholism programs.


Table 3. Most and Least Effective Alcoholism Treatments
Highest Rated
Brief interventions +239
Social skills training +128
Motivation enhancement +87
Community reinforcement +80
Behavioral contracting +73

Lowest Rated
Metronidazole - 102
Relaxation training - 109
Confrontational counseling - 125
Psychotherapy - 127
General alcohol counseling - 214
Alcoholism education programs - 239

Methods with Too Few Tests to be Reliably Rated
Sensory deprivation +40
Developmental counseling +28
Acupuncture +20
...... ...
Calcium Carbamide - 32
Antipsychotic medication - 36
AA - 52

Source: Miller, W.R., Brown, J.M., Simpson, T.L., Handmaker, N.S., Bien, T.H., Luckie, L.F., Montgomery, H.A., Hester, R.K., and Tonigan, J.S. (1995). What works?: A methodological analysis of the alcohol treatment outcome literature. In R.K. Hester and W.R. Miller (Eds.), Handbook of alcoholism treatment approaches (2nd Ed., pp. 12-44).

Moreover, Orford and Heather have shown that people's response to treatment depends more on how they think about themselves than on the severity of their actual symptoms. For example, people who believe they can drink moderately are more likely to actually succeed at controlling their drinking, contrary to AA's denial theory.

My "had a drink and I was okay sharing" was not met with a enthusiasm by my fellow A.A. friends

I am 45 years of age and have spent the last 15 years both drink and drug free. From the age of perhaps 20 I was a drug user up until my 30th birthday when I entered a twelve step program...

My problem now is, six months ago I had a drink. I was surprised that I was able to use alcohol in moderation over a three day holiday. I was even more surprised that I was not compelled to drink to drunkenness, indeed my total consumption was six drinks over 3 days. As you know this outcome is contrary to what A.A. informed me would happen if I drank again. However when I returned home I was fearful of returning to the way it was (notwithstanding my holiday experience) and promptly returned to A.A.

The drinking experience had a profound effect on me in the sense that I began to question things in general. My "had a drink and I was okay" sharing was not met with a enthusiasm by my fellow A.A. friends. Indeed I felt alienated because I wasn't returning with the horror story they needed to hear to sustain their beliefs. I became aware that I no longer pocessed the degree of helplessness I needed to be a qualifying member.

Every disease has a spontaneous remission rate. The rate for the common cold is basically 100 percent -- almost nobody ever dies just from a cold. On the other hand, diseases like cancer and Ebola have very low spontaneous remission rates -- left untreated, they are very deadly and few people recover from them. Alcoholism is in the middle. The Harvard Medical School reported that in the long run, the rate of spontaneous remission in alcoholics is slightly over 50 percent. That means that the annual rate of spontaneous remission is around 5 percent.

- Treatment of Drug Abuse and Addiction -- Part III, The Harvard Mental Health Letter, Volume 12, Number 4, October 1995, page 3.
(See Aug. (Part I), Sept. (Part II), Oct. 1995 (Part III).)

[z31maniac]

"Later in the decade, research by Kaye Fillmore, Ph.D., of the University of California, San Francisco, found that from 60 to 80 percent of problem drinkers stopped abusing alcohol, usually without treatment."

You must be a great PR person as well. That statement merely says that 60-80 percent of people stopped abusing alcohol, NOT that 60-80 percent of those who stopped abusing did it without treatment.

[Jand3rson]

Nothing gets your point across like an entire page of stuff copied and pasted from the internet.

[thull]

It is a matter of willpower.

Some people gain power through AA, some people gain power through other means.

Every time I have quit for an extended period of time, it was because I wanted to. Much like AA-style meetings, I chose to associate with other peers of the same goalset, helping me to avoid drugs/alcohol because the group mindset was against it.

The social parameters are a huge reason why alcohol and nicotine are so addictive - put a smoker/drinker in a room full of sober people and they are certainly less likely to start up.

--

Congrats Blunt - you have been sober longer than I have been alive

[rwh11385]

Nothing gets your point across like an entire page of stuff copied and pasted from the internet.

And repeating the stuff you got from your cult without any numbers to support yourself because they don't track their failures is stronger?

Cliffnotes is that several studies show AA people do WORSE than nontreated and the methods are the opposite of the best for recovery. The system is set up to keep people thinking they have a problem, not to make them better.

A lot of people in here have in their mind that alcohol is evil and bad and that anyone who enjoys it has a problem. That is just part of the American problem with alcohol - making it out to be taboo. A drinking age of 21 makes it forbidden fruit and any study about drinking and college can say binge drinking occurs frequently. Too much abuse, along with emotional stress and other problems for teenagers probably make this into a larger problem when combined.

Compare this with Germany, which is the 11th heaviest drinking country in the world. Drinking age is 16. Beer is as cheap as water and a part of the culture. But usually people are more moderate and enjoy the experience and taste, not pounding light watery beers to get drink. They consume MUCH more alcohol per year than Americans, yet have a lower alcoholism rate. Hiding from alcohol isn't what's needed, it's reducing pressure to problem drink and believing you can be strong, nor be convinced you are weak. (and handle other issues in society developing from working parents and kids being raised by myspace, MTV, and problem peers)

[myinfernalbmw]

Does this guy ever fucking quit?

Remember, its his choice to be a douchenozzle, not an addiction like it may seem. You are weak if you disagree.

[assoutE12]

AA is very specific in NOT having "religious" intent. AA is a spiritual program, very specifically NOT religious.

In fact, that was one of the biggest arguments when the first AA book was being written, primarily by two guys, one who was religious, one who was not.

The non-religious view won.

AA does not judge, does not condone any guilt, or any other condemning attitude...it is not tolerated.

The only thing AA does not tolerate is intolerance.

In fact, if Heeter were to show up at an AA meeting, announce himself as a visitor (no one is required to announce themselves as anything, it is purely voluntary) and proceed to call us all losers, weak and unable to have the willpower to handle drugs and alcohol in moderation, I can tell you EXACTLY what they would tell him...


The entire group would tell him to "keep coming back".


Luke

2. Came to believe that a Power greater than ourselves could restore us to sanity.

3. Made a decision to turn our will and our lives over to the care of God as we understood Him.

Thats fucking religious.

[h0lmes]

Does this guy ever fucking quit?

Remember, its his choice to be a douchenozzle, not an addiction like it may seem. You are weak if you disagree.

It's Heeter, were used to it.

By the way, my uncle was big time alcoholic and AA quite possibly saved his life. Not only from alcohol but from drugs as well. He has been sober for many years now.

[blunttech]

It's Heeter, were used to it.

By the way, my uncle was big time alcoholic and AA quite possibly saved his life. Not only from alcohol but from drugs as well. He has been sober for many years now.

we all know someone. watch what happens when heeter has a kid ,god forbid, who gets strung out on meth or coke and see how fast this waffleswaffleswaffleswaffleswaffleswaffles changes his tune. i truley hope that doesnt happen but hes such a fucking know it all douchebag id be lying if i said i didnt think about it.

[rwh11385]

2. Came to believe that a Power greater than ourselves could restore us to sanity.

3. Made a decision to turn our will and our lives over to the care of God as we understood Him.

Thats fucking religious.

http://www.southparkstudios.com/episodes/103677

[Miasma]

Man, Heeter is a person I would not piss on if he was on fire right in front of me. I would laugh and site paragraphs from the intarwebz.

[Jand3rson]

And then when posting pages full of text from the internet still doesn't work, post South Park Episodes.

[Turf1600]

I <3 this thread

[joshh]

And repeating the stuff you got from your cult without any numbers to support yourself because they don't track their failures is stronger?

Cliffnotes is that several studies show AA people do WORSE than nontreated and the methods are the opposite of the best for recovery. The system is set up to keep people thinking they have a problem, not to make them better.

A lot of people in here have in their mind that alcohol is evil and bad and that anyone who enjoys it has a problem. That is just part of the American problem with alcohol - making it out to be taboo. A drinking age of 21 makes it forbidden fruit and any study about drinking and college can say binge drinking occurs frequently. Too much abuse, along with emotional stress and other problems for teenagers probably make this into a larger problem when combined.

Compare this with Germany, which is the 11th heaviest drinking country in the world. Drinking age is 16. Beer is as cheap as water and a part of the culture. But usually people are more moderate and enjoy the experience and taste, not pounding light watery beers to get drink. They consume MUCH more alcohol per year than Americans, yet have a lower alcoholism rate. Hiding from alcohol isn't what's needed, it's reducing pressure to problem drink and believing you can be strong, nor be convinced you are weak. (and handle other issues in society developing from working parents and kids being raised by myspace, MTV, and problem peers)

See at that point (begining of this page) it would have been a good idea to have not posted anything. And just let it die.