How bad is this oil spill

[Aptyp]

[mrsleeve]

I think these alternatives serve their purpose. Do you know how cheap fuel would be if 50% of the cars on the road got 50MPG.

Like I told you before Call your dam congressman, bitch to them why this is not going on here in the USA. Its the EPA that has regulated the ULTRA efficient internal combustion engine outta of existence on our shores. Not form the lack of auto companies development of them. Also note that the EPA is being used as a weapon (much like the IRS) against business and people that engage in things that are counter to the feds agenda

And NO FUEL WOULD NOT BE ANY CHEAPER. I would most likely be MORE expensive. 1 word TAXES just like the Europeans. In this latest binge on efficient cars and push to drive less, states are not making as much revenue on the refined fuels. SO many are pushing a higher gas tax or fitting all cars with a logger so you can be taxed per mile you drive. SO in essence you will be double or triple or in lots of places quadruple taxed, when ever you drive. Not that any have been passed as of yet, but its being pushed in all kinds of places including brought up in DC.

With that said the computers we use today are many generations beyond what we had 15 years ago, but it took that inferior technology to make the technology that we are going to use 10 years from now. It is the same for cars.

Yes and the cars we drive are way better (in some ways) than the ones we had in 1974, but the rate of technological advancement and development is much slower than that of Computers. There are 1000's of other variables and the laws of Phsycis you have to contend with when increasing automotive technology, Not to mention fucked up govt getting its greedy fingers and bureaucratic red tape into everything and making everything that much harder.

The Prius is going to make driving my 5mpg E30 a little more easy at a current price of $8-$10 per gallon. I remeber when I only paid $5 per gallon for Sunoco 100 GT. And it is the same for energy, Solar and wind systems are not what they used to be, I have a friend that owns a wind farm and is part owner in a few nuclear plants in Europe as well as being friends with two of the largest Ethanol petroleum traders in the states. Their opinions are fairly consistent, we could rid the US of all foreign energy in 5-10 years, but no one wants to pay for it!

Of course your friends have that common consensus, They are Profiting on the backs of the US taxpayers with all subsidize to make their green energy profitable. They would not be making any money at all for many many more years, to the point where the return on investment would be so small and to long of a time frame to get a any return, to be a solid investment. That is with out the construction grants of course, but since they got them its a moot point. They are no differant than AL save the earth GORE.

Do you really think ethanol is a viable solution???? More energy intensive to make into fuel than gas (by 2 1/2 times IIRC will have to double check) then it only has 85% of the BTU in it for and equal amount of gas. In other words you get 20mpg with a gallon of gas, you only get 17mpg in the same car under the same conditions with ethanol.

Its only cheaper and profitable right now due to the federal tax dollars being pumped into the industry. I have worked in a number of eth plants as well, 2 of which are mothballed before even running a bushel of corn. Again the govt trying to steer the marketplace, and force it into something that is not a good venture by subsidizing it.

Oh and you dont GROW FUEL you GROW FOOD, we can barley grow enough food to feed us and the rest of the world as it is now. There is not enough farm-able ground in the world to make food and fuel. you think shit gets bad when fuel gets expensive and scarce. Wait till that happens to food because we are making too much fuel. You like 14 dollar boxes of cereal??? Or 8 bucks a lb ground chuck??? Thats what happens when there is not enough corn. Ask New Zeeland how the big ethanol push worked out.

You green hippie guys, just dont get it at all. We need to do this or that, but dont think about the what the repercussions to your life will be. While all these solutions may make you fell all warm and fuzzy on the inside and that you are doing something good. Thats fine on paper, but in the stark reality of the real world much of it crumbles into dust under the strain of actual execution. See how the french and Danes wind farm ideas worked out, Figured out it was not windy all the time. ask the Spanish how the solar boiler is working (turns out it was kinda expensive and when it gets dark the lights flicker for some reason ) ask most of Europe how the CAP and TRADE worked out.

When you have 90% of your net pay going to food, energy, Shelter, there wont be any driving your race car, or going for a drive to go for a drive. It will be about just paying the bills.

[briansjacobs]

Like I told you before Call your dam congressman, bitch to them why this is not going on here in the USA. Its the EPA that has regulated the ULTRA efficient internal combustion engine outta of existence on our shores. Not form the lack of auto companies development of them.
actually engines are way more effecient than years back, we get the same MPG as years back because we are driving heavier vehicle IE: 2010 F150vs 1990 F150 or Camry or Corolla....

Also note that the EPA is being used as a weapon (much like the IRS) against business and people that engage in things that are counter to the feds agenda
I will agree with that to a point


And NO FUEL WOULD NOT BE ANY CHEAPER. I would most likely be MORE expensive. 1 word TAXES just like the Europeans. In this latest binge on efficient cars and push to drive less, states are not making as much revenue on the refined fuels. SO many are pushing a higher gas tax or fitting all cars with a logger so you can be taxed per mile you drive. SO in essence you will be double or triple or in lots of places quadruple taxed, when ever you drive. Not that any have been passed as of yet, but its being pushed in all kinds of places including brought up in DC.

do you know why fuel is more expensive in the winter than the summer, Heating. it is a simple rule of supply and demand

Yes and the cars we drive are way better (in some ways) than the ones we had in 1974, but the rate of technological advancement and development is much slower than that of Computers. There are 1000's of other variables and the laws of Phsycis you have to contend with when increasing automotive technology, Not to mention fucked up govt getting its greedy fingers and bureaucratic red tape into everything and making everything that much harder.

again I agree to a certai extent, there is a need for govt oversight in alot of areas, for the most part they get it right, sometimes the really fuck it up

Of course your friends have that common consensus, They are Profiting on the backs of the US taxpayers with all subsidize to make their green energy profitable. They would not be making any money at all for many many more years, to the point where the return on investment would be so small and to long of a time frame to get a any return, to be a solid investment. That is with out the construction grants of course, but since they got them its a moot point. They are no differant than AL save the earth GORE.
umm, your wrong. petroleum traders are no different than stock traders, they would just trade a different product. My friend in the energy business is not even in the states


Do you really think ethanol is a viable solution???? More energy intensive to make into fuel than gas (by 2 1/2 times IIRC will have to double check) then it only has 85% of the BTU in it for and equal amount of gas. In other words you get 20mpg with a gallon of gas, you only get 17mpg in the same car under the same conditions with ethanol.
seems to be working just fine in Brazil where they make it from Sugar, much higher effeciency than corn

Its only cheaper and profitable right now due to the federal tax dollars being pumped into the industry. I have worked in a number of eth plants as well, 2 of which are mothballed before even running a bushel of corn. Again the govt trying to steer the marketplace, and force it into something that is not a good venture by subsidizing it.

Oh and you dont GROW FUEL you GROW FOOD, we can barley grow enough food to feed us and the rest of the world as it is now. There is not enough farm-able ground in the world to make food and fuel. you think shit gets bad when fuel gets expensive and scarce. Wait till that happens to food because we are making too much fuel. You like 14 dollar boxes of cereal??? Or 8 bucks a lb ground chuck??? Thats what happens when there is not enough corn. Ask New Zeeland how the big ethanol push worked out.
have you flown over the USA lately? empty land everywhere! part of the problem is we eat a lot of the wrong foods


You green hippie guys, just dont get it at all. We need to do this or that, but dont think about the what the repercussions to your life will be.Actually I live my life thinking every day about the reprecussions of my actions, the affect my actions will have on my children and their children
While all these solutions may make you fell all warm and fuzzy on the inside and that you are doing something good. Thats fine on paper, but in the stark reality of the real world much of it crumbles into dust under the strain of actual execution. See how the french and Danes wind farm ideas worked out, Figured out it was not windy all the time. ask the Spanish how the solar boiler is working (turns out it was kinda expensive and when it gets dark the lights flicker for some reason ) ask most of Europe how the CAP and TRADE worked out.
dont get the misconception that because I am for some goverment programs I am for all of them, far from it. Growing up I had a mohawk (not those waffleswaffleswaffleswaffleswaffles ass faux hawks) and was againt all goverment. then I grew up

When you have 90% of your net pay going to food, energy, Shelter, there wont be any driving your race car, or going for a drive to go for a drive. It will be about just paying the bills.

thanks for the concern but I will be fine

[mrsleeve]

actually engines are way more effecient than years back, we get the same MPG as years back because we are driving heavier vehicle IE: 2010 F150vs 1990 F150 or Camry or Corolla....

No arguments there, they are way more efficant than 10 years ago and yes things have gotten heavier. WHY again GOVT mandating all kinds of extra and heavy safety features.

I was referring to the ULTRA efficient you know the 70mpg 200hp turbo diesels and 50+ mpg gassers, of Europe. YEAH those have been regulated outta the USA by the EPA with obnoxious NOx limits.

Thanks to the laws of physics ultra efficant engines use little fuel. There for run VERY LEAN. What happens when we run lean??? ( you should know this) You RUN VERY HIGH combustion temps. Very high combustion temps and compression will invariably fuse some of the Nitrogen 78% of the incoming air charge that happens to be inert and do nothing with some of the O2 before it burns. Thus creating the various Nitrogen-oxide compounds represented at NOx.

So again call your congressperson and let them know .

do you know why fuel is more expensive in the winter than the summer, Heating. it is a simple rule of supply and demand

Gee thanks for pointing that out, its mostly due to the switch over in the Crackers to bias the heavier fuels aka #1 and #2 diesel fuels ( home heating is #1 as is kerosene) from a more Gasoline/lighter fules biased production cycle so there will be enough so people can stay warm in the winter. Also has much to do with the more costly winter additive packages to keep the shit flowing and from creating havoc

NO gas is the same price in europe as it here with in a few cents (due to supply rules) the reason the UK pays 8 bucks a gallon for gas is because of the 5 bucks in taxes added on.

With people not buying as much gas in the last 18 months due to various reasons, greener new car, no job commute got fired, cutting back on driving to save more money what ever the reason. Govt's Federal, state and locals are seeing a big drop in income from the gas taxes on refined product even though its taxed at least 3 times before you put it your tank to drive with. SO since they are seeing a loss in income, they are all purposing to raise the gas taxes.

If we all went to a 100mpg car tomorrow, it would not ease the supply all that much, you have china india and several other emerging markets that will soak up all that excess production. and then our govts at a loss of revenue will jack the taxes on it. You cant have your cake and eat it too on this one.

again I agree to a certai extent, there is a need for govt oversight in alot of areas, for the most part they get it right, sometimes the really fuck it up

No anything the govt gets into in an attempt to steer or manipulate any market be it through incentive or punitive taxes or fines. Fucks it up period.

umm, your wrong. petroleum traders are no different than stock traders, they would just trade a different product. My friend in the energy business is not even in the states

Again thanks for pointing out that oil is a globally traded commodity, I had no idea.

Your argument made it seem as if that they had holding in wind here. Still even in europe I am fairly sure the govt's have a good stake of tax dollars shoved into these alternative energy source to make the a viable generation source.

seems to be working just fine in Brazil where they make it from Sugar, much higher effeciency than corn

Ok yeah sugar is a little more efficient but not much, still takes 2 1/2 times the energy to make fuel outta it compared to equal amount of gas with less BTU.

lets think about this for just a sec ok.
Brazil has 1.23 million mi of roads and 14,820,000 passenger cars, and 3,300,000 commercial vehicles. with a population of 191,971,506 people and a land mass of 3,300,171 sq. miles

the USA has 4 million miles of roads and 254,403,082 total registered vehicles with a population of 304 million. Land mass of 3,618,780 sq mi

So to recap we have 100m more people, we have 236,283,082 vehicles and 2.75m miles more roads and more land mass thats not impenetrable rain forest. We are spread out much more and a more mobile society. rather than being confined to a few population centers in the middle of the jungle. That = much more driving and more demand. In other words it may work there it wont work here. Oh that and Brazil is a big exporter of oil, thanks to its lower demands.

.

have you flown over the USA lately? empty land everywhere! part of the problem is we eat a lot of the wrong foods

Um YEAH I work all over the county, if you drive through it will see all that "empty land" is growing FOOD for us and the world its not empty its being put use. Lets not eating habbits into this either.

.Actually I live my life thinking every day about the reprecussions of my actions, the affect my actions will have on my children and their children

Good, you seem to be have taken the al gore movie a little to seriously. though

dont get the misconception that because I am for some goverment programs I am for all of them, far from it. Growing up I had a mohawk (not those waffleswaffleswaffleswaffleswaffles ass faux hawks) and was againt all goverment. then I grew up

LOL well good, while you may be semi annoying, (you have not reached h0lmes status yet) you are keeping my brain working and I learned brazil had a very large land mass to day I had no idea it was that big

[briansjacobs]

Good, you seem to be have taken the al gore movie a little to seriously. though

he has alterior motives and is in my opinion not sincere, My out look is more do what you can, dont try to change the world, but if you can make a few little changes, great. keep in mind my trrack car gets about 5MPG of 100oct and my daily driver is a Yukon Denali XL. Hippies hate me!


LOL well good, while you may be semi annoying, (you have not reached h0lmes status yet) you are keeping my brain working and I learned brazil had a very large land mass to day I had no idea it was that big

and you are keeping me on my toes as well, all in good fun my friend

[Wiglaf]

so anyways.. i'm seeing a lot of speculation that the actual quantity of oil being leaked is nearly 20x the number that BP said it was, although nobody seems to be up to the task of actually measuring it. Not that I have any idea how someone would go about doing such a thing, but considering the potential damage and lawsuits you think they'd be taking this more seriously.

[BlueBMW]

Didn't one engineer calculate based on the velocity and the size of the outlet hole an approximate flow rate? I thought that's where the 100,000 gallons / day number came from.

[mrsleeve]

Didn't one engineer calculate based on the velocity and the size of the outlet hole an approximate flow rate? I thought that's where the 100,000 gallons / day number came from.

or about 4200 barrels


BP's estimates are at about 5000 barrels a day and they are recovering about 1000 barrels

[Atreus]

http://www.wimp.com/oilspills/

blast from the past man..

[Wiglaf]

good point but she was annoying the crap out of me. :p
it is kinda funny how similar it is.

[Ryan Stewart]

Why are BP attornies part of the clean up or engineering corps? And by the way there is no court action at this point, do you just make shit up as you go along?

http://www.cnn.com/2010/US/06/10/csi.gulf.oil.spill/index.html

[reelop19]

What a stupid thread. 1st who cares what all of you think about the spill when you don't know the facts on how much is spilled and how it compares, which is far less, to the amount spilled and secreted by the earth every year (no offense to the maybe 1 or 2 of you who have paid attention). 2nd you liberals sicken me. 3rd your parents and teachers sicken me for letting you live in tha mind frame. 4th try living without oil instead of being hypocrits. 5th I hate liberals

[Jonny Cash]

1st who cares what all of you think about the spill when you don't know the facts on how much is spilled and how it compares, which is far less, to the amount spilled and secreted by the earth every year

Youre fucking dillusional. Noone's born with knowledge, they are guided to beleive what they choose. Unless you're down 2k' with your deep sea gear on measuring the natural oils that seep from the earth yourself that shit is heresay. Basically what Im trying to say, is whoever convinced you (probably glen beck) that this is not a substaintial problem is just being selfish. If i had a penny for how amny times ive read the word "I" in this thread id be rich. Stay in Kansas, dig your 2012 getaway hole, and stfu.

fuck the political bs dude. This is peoples livelyhoods we're talking here. Where both of us live! Suck off and beleive whoever news source you want to it doesent matter. Sleeve and them can talk all the shit they wants he's not losing his job over it.. bottom line is all of us that live here will ultimatley be affected by this. This is my concern, and should be everyone who lives here.

[joshh]

Youre fucking dillusional. Noone's born with knowledge, they are guided to beleive what they choose. Unless you're down 2k' with your deep sea gear on measuring the natural oils that seep from the earth yourself that shit is heresay. Basically what Im trying to say, is whoever convinced you (probably glen beck) that this is not a substaintial problem is just being selfish. If i had a penny for how amny times ive read the word "I" in this thread id be rich. Stay in Kansas, dig your 2012 getaway hole, and stfu.

fuck the political bs dude. This is peoples livelyhoods we're talking here. Where both of us live! Suck off and beleive whoever news source you want to it doesent matter. Sleeve and them can talk all the shit they wants he's not losing his job over it.. bottom line is all of us that live here will ultimatley be affected by this. This is my concern, and should be everyone who lives here.

And it would be nice if Obama had that view.

[z31maniac]

What a stupid thread. 1st who cares what all of you think about the spill when you don't know the facts on how much is spilled and how it compares, which is far less, to the amount spilled and secreted by the earth every year (no offense to the maybe 1 or 2 of you who have paid attention). 2nd you liberals sicken me. 3rd your parents and teachers sicken me for letting you live in tha mind frame. 4th try living without oil instead of being hypocrits. 5th I hate liberals

Please show me the source that indicates the earth, naturally leeches 16,000 barrels of oil per day into the oceans. I use 16,000 barrels per day, because currently the cap is catching around 15,600 barrels per day and it's not getting all of it.

Not to mention the flawed logic. Even if 50,000 barrels leeched from hundreds or thousands of places all over the earth, every day, it's much more diluted than it is in the gulf right now.