Israel just doesn't get it...

[dvs909]

dvs909, You almost have me but it still doesn't answer the UN issue, and yes you guys can say the UN can get fucked but most of the rest of us don't have that luxury.
And also;


Surely they would have enough sense to board a vessel once it was actually inside the blockaded region.
I agree there is a big overreaction from the international community but Israel aren't doing themselves any favours.

i think they were worried they wouldn't be able to stop all the ships by the time they were in the region.
i agree that it was not politically swift.
if they had waited till the flotilla was in the blockaded region, they could have screamed to the international community about those troublemakers etc, and no one would have anything to stand on. as it is, they were within their legal rights but they played right into these "peace activists" hands.

the other thing you have to worry about as Israel, is they don't know whats in the boats, and they have several countries who have openly sworn their destruction. in the position they are in, you don't fuck around, you play for keeps. i believe the day we learn iran has a atomic or nuclear weapon is the day that so called terrorists detonate one inside Israel, or even better in Palestine engineered to look like a Israeli nuke. imagine the shitstorm that would cause.


Kaiser i think Wahhabism is the biggest threat to the worlds peace ever. read "the two faces of islam" by Stephan Schwartz. its a fantastic look at the roots of islam, its growth and history before this century, its politics and how it formed to be what it is today. it makes a frightening amount of sense.

[mrsleeve]

All the reports from the people on the boats (the only ones present besides the Israelis, obviously) agree that the Israelis started shooting before boarding the boat.



Kershaw, your description is a simplification, there are some other interesting points that should be touched on. First of all, it wasn't just the U.S. that didn't want Jewish refugees, it was also Britain, Russia, and most of the rest of Europe. Russia was actually a very hostile place for Jews in the 30 or 40 years following WWII.

Also, the Jews were not simply instated into Israel, there was a substantial quantity of them that came over prior to WWII and purchased land in Palestine as part of the original, relatively diplomatic and non-violent Zionist movement that was content to share the area with its existing residents. After WWII, the movement became much more militant and land was simply taken, not bought, in an effort to get control of the entirety of the area decreed by the U.N. to be Israel. The controlled area first stayed within the UN's proposed 2-state solution, then was procedurally expanded as a result of Israel clashing with Syria, Jordan, and Egypt (and military forces of other countries that disliked their land grab) and winning because they were better equipped (by the U.S.).

I encourage you to look up the Balfour declaration of 1917. It was the brits that intended to "GIVE" the jews the land that was under British control so they could have a home land.

[dirtysix]

dvs909, You almost have me but it still doesn't answer the UN issue, and yes you guys can say the UN can get fucked but most of the rest of us don't have that luxury.
And also;

11. Israel had attempted to take control of the vessels participating in the flotilla by peaceful means and in an orderly fashion in order to enforce the blockade. Given the large number of vessels participating in the flotilla, an operational decision was made to undertake measures to enforce the blockade a certain distance from the area of the blockade.

Surely they would have enough sense to board a vessel once it was actually inside the blockaded region.
I agree there is a big overreaction from the international community but Israel aren't doing themselves any favours.

[E30Kaiser]

The problem with Muslim/Western relations is that when people think Islam they think Wahhabism, which is only really accurate of Saudi Arabia and the Taliban, and even that is changing in Saudi Arabia as the royal family is starting to get tired of the Wahhabist. While terrible shit still happens in other countries it is more open than people think. In Turkey for instance they are so radically secular it is ILLEGAL to wear any veils or hijabs or burkas or anything like that in public, and extremely frowned upon in general. This is also a country that has the Presidency, Prime Ministry, and most of parliament controlled by a fundamentalist Muslim party, to the disdain of the military. You also have the eastern Muslim nations that no one really talks about except for terrorist groups in the Philippines.

The way the West views Islam is like viewing the West as nothing but Mormons and fundamentalist Christian terrorists. Not really making a point here beyond don't generalize the actions of the worst Islamic Republics to those of all.

[dvs909]

http://www.mfa.gov.il/MFA/Government/Law/Legal+Issues+and+Rulings/Gaza_flotilla_maritime_blockade_Gaza-Legal_background_31-May-2010.htm

on the legality issues. yes its a Israeli website, no i dont feel that its biased or illegitimate

kershaw im with you on your crusade to revamp the islamic legal system, but i think your parameters their are a little wide. yes i know that stuff has happened. but i dont know how widespread it is.

[ak-]

we need to hookah some time.

Oh snap, have we met?
I'm down (:

this thread was tl;dr.

but i wanted to point out that it was in international waters.

which equates it to terrorism and piracy.

just saying.

everyone does realize that the u.s. was the one that created isreal out of nothing in 1948 because we didnt want that many jews in the u.s., right? so we kicked a bunch of palestinians out of their homes and installed a bunch of jews there. the jews said, "hey, this is my home cause my people lived here 2000 years ago." and the palestinians are kind of upset because they were kicked out of their homes and then forced to live in this tiny area, cut off from the sea and generally shit upon by the isrealis.

i know that anyone else would not have acted differently. any of you. if someone kicks you out of your home, i know you'd be pissed and want revenge.

MONEY!

all of our muslim issues are a real problem. those fuckers need to be brought into the 21st century, where we dont cut off hands and heads for being slightly too exposed. or rape women just because they are alone.

lol, wait, wat?

[dirtysix]

That is one of the problems with Israel. They just act. But at the same time who are they to ask for permission? They have people to protect.
But the UN is a total joke.
I don't have a problem with the fact they have a blockade specially if ships in the area know about it. If they refuse to stop, they must be bored.
It's the way Israel did it that I don't like. But then again this group is connected to Hamas a terrorist organization.

Well fair enough.
But there are plenty of other people round here claiming black an' blue that Israel acted legally and to me, this isn't at all clear.

[briansjacobs]

I did see a clip on the news that the father of one of the people killed said he is not sad because his died a martyr for a just cause, and he wishes to die a martyr also.

or that is a conspiracy from the liberal translator! I will say that if you want to die a martyr, Isreal can help you with that request

[joshh]

A brief excerpt:
Since 1945, the UN Security Council determines the legal status of blockades and by article 42 of the UN Charter, the Council can also apply blockades.

Has the legality of this blockade been established?

I guess the point I'm making is that none of this is really all that clear...

That is one of the problems with Israel. They just act. But at the same time who are they to ask for permission? They have people to protect.
But the UN is a total joke.
I don't have a problem with the fact they have a blockade specially if ships in the area know about it. If they refuse to stop, they must be bored.
It's the way Israel did it that I don't like. But then again this group is connected to Hamas a terrorist organization.

[dirtysix]

It's a blockade. It can be done in international waters. America has done it a few times.



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blockade

A brief excerpt:
Since 1945, the UN Security Council determines the legal status of blockades and by article 42 of the UN Charter, the Council can also apply blockades.

Has the legality of this blockade been established?

I guess the point I'm making is that none of this is really all that clear...

[Ray Smoodiver]

International waters.

[joshh]

It's a blockade. It can be done in international waters. America has done it a few times.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blockade

[dirtysix]

So they were in Israeli waters??

[joshh]

No the flotilla had no idea what they were doing that's why they had 10 fucking cameras rolling just coincidentally right when the Israelis were boarding the ships.

[dirtysix]

Was the flotilla in international waters??

If so:
How can boarding and attempting to seize a ship in international waters be legal??
If they were in international waters how was the flotilla breaking international law??

If the ship had been inside Israeli waters then I can see some justification.