our schools suck because of THE LIBERAL AGENDA

[mrsleeve]

Totally agree with this. Even back then I hated when other kids got stuff for free because they were poor but I'd have to spend my allowance. That's bullshit!

lol even a blind squirrel gets a nut once in a while :D

[Turf1600]

A. You're not claiming anti-religion but you think it's as fanciful as the above bolded? I'm still not seeing where I'm wrong in anything I've said.

As fanciful? Maybe to some, but that wasn't my point at all. My point was that it is equally supported by science.

B. As long as they don't get in your face about Jesus but you can get in everyone elses face about how stupid you think they are for believing in him? Mmm.

I don't get in anyone's face. I'm very reserved about my beliefs.

C. You're not anti-religion but your whole point was that Religion is the downfall of:

1. America's Education System
2. Free thought



Where am I off here?

My point was that no single religion belongs in public schools supported by the tax payers of a country with no national religion. If religion must be in schools, it should equally cover all religions with no bias. Check out the link I sent out earlier. Removing Jefferson from school cirriculums and replacing him with Calvin? That's child abuse. Not that Calvin should be discluded, but he should not be favored over anyone.

Read in bold above.

If you want to take what I'm saying and spin it to make some sort of watered down point go ahead. I'm not the extremist you make me out to me - I'm just a person of principle.

[Turf1600]

Sorry I am against gross generalizations in classes, I feel it is one of the shittiest things in schools these days.

What's the alternative to scientifically accepted theory?

This?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_-agl0pOQfs

[E30Kaiser]

What's the alternative to scientifically accepted theory?

This?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_-agl0pOQfs

I don't know what you are talking about with this, I am merely saying kids should learn how the Earth was made, and the evolution of stars and elements not just, "The Big Bang happened, here you are" like most complex scientific theories are taught in school, they just hit the bold words. Almost all classes are like that, don't just teach kids terms, teach them how things are related and cause and effect.

[KenC]

Only comes with a disclaimer from wacko publishers. School should not be free and neither should lunches. Jeez haven't you seen what they serve for lunch. Disgraceful. If there weren't government entitlement programs sure some people would suffer but guess what.....there used to not be those programs and they've only proven to get worse and make lives worse as a whole. Do away with those and how do people get help? Well they get help like they used to, churches and nice people who profit off the finest example of an economy this world has seen so far. Didn't I already say this thread blows? Lets shut it down and talk about Obama wanting to kick some ass over at the oil companies. Now that was a fine example of being a bad president.

You mention doing away with "government entitlement programs" in one sentence. I'll make a small stretch and assume you feel the same way about social assistance in the form of welfare and medicaid.
I'll make another fairly conservative assumption that your world-view rests upon the notion that if you remove the "social crutch" that the indigent are "leaning on" that all of them will be forced to work harder (which in your world translates directly to a higher income).


Two questions I pose for you:
1. Do you believe that income is more or less directly correlated to one's effort?

2. What should we do with the individuals that don't flourish/thrive by necessity when the social safety-net is removed?

[z31maniac]

Two questions I pose for you:
1. Do you believe that income is more or less directly correlated to one's effort?

2. What should we do with the individuals that don't flourish/thrive by necessity when the social safety-net is removed?

1. Yes. Perfect example between my sister and I. I went to college, got a degree, and was willing to take risks in the job market (ie changing to a job with the same pay but NO benefits at the start of the recession so I could change careers) vs my sister who dropped out because she wanted to move to a resort town in CA and party.

She now has three kids and is on welfare.

2. I disagree with him, I think there should be a LIMITED safety net. Welfare shouldn't mean driving an SUV, having fancy cell phone, basic cable and flat screen, and all the food you can eat.

You get the bare essentials to get you by until you can begin to earn a living for yourself.

[mrsleeve]

You mention doing away with "government entitlement programs" in one sentence. I'll make a small stretch and assume you feel the same way about social assistance in the form of welfare and medicaid.
I'll make another fairly conservative assumption that your world-view rests upon the notion that if you remove the "social crutch" that the indigent are "leaning on" that all of them will be forced to work harder (which in your world translates directly to a higher income).


Two questions I pose for you:
1. Do you believe that income is more or less directly correlated to one's effort?

2. What should we do with the individuals that don't flourish/thrive by necessity when the social safety-net is removed?

I am for doing good to the poor, but...I think the best way of doing good to the poor, is not making them easy in poverty, but leading or driving them out of it. I observed...that the more public provisions were made for the poor, the less they provided for themselves, and of course became poorer. And, on the contrary, the less was done for them, the more they did for themselves, and became richer. -Ben Franklin

I’m a great believer in luck, and I find the harder I work the more I have of it. - Thomas Jefferson.

Much wisdom in these words

As far as #2, there will never be a full with draw of the social safety net it will go back to how it was before he New Deal, relying on the FREE GIVEN generosity of others. I know I could and would donate more money to to those in need, if it was not forcefully taken outta pay check each week.

There always has been a safety net there always will be one, The people will do right by each other for the most part if left alone to do so. Its not the job of the govt to take care of us when we fall down, its our job to pick our selves back up and try again.

I believe I already explained my vision of the entitlement safety net to you, but I am adding a clause. You will be randomly piss tested 2 times a month, BUST ONE TEST, buuuuuu BYE benefits. If I have to piss in a cup to get a pay check so do they

[KenC]

1. Yes. Perfect example between my sister and I. I went to college, got a degree, and was willing to take risks in the job market (ie changing to a job with the same pay but NO benefits at the start of the recession so I could change careers) vs my sister who dropped out because she wanted to move to a resort town in CA and party.

She now has three kids and is on welfare.

2. I disagree with him, I think there should be a LIMITED safety net. Welfare shouldn't mean driving an SUV, having fancy cell phone, basic cable and flat screen, and all the food you can eat.

You get the bare essentials to get you by until you can begin to earn a living for yourself.

1. This country can't survive if everyone is making a "living wage." What should society offer to those who work hard and earn an honest living at <$20,000/year?

2. The "welfare queen" is a MINUTE exception to those who receive social assistance. I think it's disgusting, but there will be abusers of every system... there's no way to effectively police it. The majority of those who receive welfare have full-time jobs and only use it for short durations; the way it was intended.

[mrsleeve]

^^^^^^^^^^^^^

I grew up POOR, not dirt poor, but there were times that we were.

You can live on much less than 20k a year, I have lived an entire year on 13k GROSS. No govt assistance. Not easy but it doable. When I was a kid there were a few years where the farm did badly, and Work for my dad was slow, (mid-late 80's) we as a family of 4 made it on like 15k for a entire year with no govt aid.

It can be done, it has been done, it will continue to be done.

[E30Kaiser]

I am for doing good to the poor, but...I think the best way of doing good to the poor, is not making them easy in poverty, but leading or driving them out of it. I observed...that the more public provisions were made for the poor, the less they provided for themselves, and of course became poorer. And, on the contrary, the less was done for them, the more they did for themselves, and became richer. -Ben Franklin

I’m a great believer in luck, and I find the harder I work the more I have of it. - Thomas Jefferson.

Much wisdom in these words

As far as #2, there will never be a full with draw of the social safety net it will go back to how it was before he New Deal, relying on the FREE GIVEN generosity of others. I know I could and would donate more money to to those in need, if it was not forcefully taken outta pay check each week.

There always has been a safety net there always will be one, The people will do right by each other for the most part if left alone to do so. Its not the job of the govt to take care of us when we fall down, its our job to pick our selves back up and try again.

I believe I already explained my vision of the entitlement safety net to you, but I am adding a clause. You will be randomly piss tested 2 times a month, BUST ONE TEST, buuuuuu BYE benefits. If I have to piss in a cup to get a pay check so do they

One of my favorite Alexander Hamilton quotes is in the same vain but probably more towards why some people are so pro-handouts.
"In the general course of human nature, A power over a man's subsistence amounts to a power over his will."-Hamilton.

[z31maniac]

1. This country can't survive if everyone is making a "living wage." What should society offer to those who work hard and earn an honest living at <$20,000/year?

2. The "welfare queen" is a MINUTE exception to those who receive social assistance. I think it's disgusting, but there will be abusers of every system... there's no way to effectively police it. The majority of those who receive welfare have full-time jobs and only use it for short durations; the way it was intended.

1. I guess I'm a bit confused by what you're getting at, care to expound upon it? Are you saying that there can never be 100% employment (which is true) or that everyone deserves at least some amount of money for their work? The second part is answered with minimum wage.

2. Drug testing, controlling what benefits can be spent on, etc would be a great start. Did you know here, like in most states, the food stamps are now on a electronic debit card and you also get a certain cash allowance per month?

No shopping at conveince stores, where it costs 2-4x what it costs at a grocery store. No cash allowance so you can use food stamps to buy cigs and beer (watched it happen all the time when I worked at QT in my younger days).

If you can afford pot, beer and cigs, then you don't need any help from the gov't.

[ck_taft325is]

Beer and smokes are not buyable anymore via Food stamps. Even the Electronic kind.

[BraveUlysses]

1. I guess I'm a bit confused by what you're getting at, care to expound upon it? Are you saying that there can never be 100% employment (which is true) or that everyone deserves at least some amount of money for their work? The second part is answered with minimum wage.

2. Drug testing, controlling what benefits can be spent on, etc would be a great start. Did you know here, like in most states, the food stamps are now on a electronic debit card and you also get a certain cash allowance per month?

No shopping at conveince stores, where it costs 2-4x what it costs at a grocery store. No cash allowance so you can use food stamps to buy cigs and beer (watched it happen all the time when I worked at QT in my younger days).

If you can afford pot, beer and cigs, then you don't need any help from the gov't.

Why do people feel the need to drag out the usual, boring red herring fallacies when discussing welfare? Anyone who trots out a "welfare queen" argument has nothing to say.

Regarding EBT:

Through EBT, a recipient uses his/her EBT card to make purchases at participating retailers. Food Stamp benefits can only be used to purchase food items authorized by the USDA's SNAP program. These include chewing gum, pastries, desserts, and snack foods. Cash benefits may be used to purchase any item at a participating retailer, as well as to obtain cash-back or make a cash withdrawal from a participating ATM.

No, nobody is buying beer, cigarettes or lottery tickets with EBT funds. If they conduct separate transactions with real money, well, that's that person's business, not yours.

Welfare reform of the 90's was enormously successful, and limited the lifetime length that a person can spend on welfare.

[mrsleeve]

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

If WE are feeding them, and they have the cash to buy beer, spirits, Tobacco and pot (in copious amounts normally). Then we dont need to be feeding and housing them.

The ebt cards let them buy name brand cereals, GOOD stakes, little Debbie's and all the good shit. While I am buying cube steaks, marked down ground chuck, generic ice cream, and pasta thats on sale, in line right behind them. Then when all the shit that the card takes care of for a couple of hundred bucks, there is 150-200 in Booze, tobacco products paid for with cash.

I work all over the country and see this shit all the time, every state I go to it Bull shit, I am having to pay for all their groceries and likely housing, while paying for my own housing, my hotel bills where I am working and my own grocery bill. I dont get to spend 100 bucks a week on beer and spirits, not that I would but it would be nice to have the govt help me so I could

[ck_taft325is]

Do you personally know someone that's on subsistence and buying copious amounts of pot with the subsistence money? I know most people in WA, a very liberal welfare state, get around $200.00 a month for food and another $100.00 in cash. For a whole month. While I've read your family while growing up made it on $15,000 a year, I can honestly say that my family has made it on less a number of times. Without subsistence. When my dad split for a year my Mom and I (7 at the time) had to go on Welfare. Does this include us in the system and people type you're talking about??

If $300.00 is buying them copious amounts of pot, someone should really let h0lmes know where at. He's probably getting ripped off in comparison.

Also, if they want to blow their very little $300.00 on name brand cereals, good steaks, Hostess and "all the good shit", then they can. It's their choice to. But that also means the money doesn't go as far.

I've got to agree with Brave here. The "welfare queen" argument is tired. For everyone "welfare queen" I can give you 5 people that genuinely just need help in a hard time. My mother was one of them. Notice, in a hard time. She got a job, rode the bus 4 hours a day, worked 10 and took care of me.

On the flip side, people have to stop acting like they deserve anything in this world. It's a hard fucking time being here and you have to sometimes pull yourself up by the boot straps, stop crying and wipe the sand out of your vag. Shit's tough.