The Bush Tax cuts...

[Frog]

I oppose it, live within the city, make more than the average household income and am still well below $250k a year. So what does that make me?

Things like the AMT and such do impact my family. My parents actually would be on the cusp of the change.

Even said, Im more concerned about equitableness. I dont have to be a millionaire because, like I posted before, I shouldnt be expected to be part of a group to give a shit about the outcome of the group should I? If that is the case then am I a "poor redneck" because I believe gays should be able to marry despite being hetero or that you shouldnt be able to own black people even though I am white?

I have a fundamental issue with the idea that "they have success, they should pay for the rest." Even with a flat tax they would be paying more (they already do account for a bulk of the income while the people at the bottom pay none). I "like" the idea that the Dems claim that this bill adds $600bil to the deficit because of the millionaires without noting that the $600bil is the total cost of the bill and that only a small portion of it actually goes towards the "millionaire's tax cut."

Also this doesnt take into account people using S-Corps that pass all of the tax burden onto themselves as the shareholders (its still lower than our corporate tax rate). But, Im sure you thought of that didn't you?

Personally, let it expire for everyone. Its not going to keep people from feeding their kids since the really poor dont pay income tax anyway. Let it expire on the condition that they also equally cut as much from the budget.

I find it funny that people who have the rape the rich/business also are the ones bitching the most about how everyone is taking their business overseas. This is a new world, you cant just bend someone over and expect them to take it when they have options. What happens is you end up with Lichtenstein, a tiny country that is wealthy despite low tax rates because everyone wants to pay taxes there instead of higher rates in the rest of Europe.

Notice I didn't say all.

I have family over the 250 bracket, they have so much money they couldn't care less to pay a little more. It really IS a LITTLE more. This doesn't bother them, because they believe (as do I) that they got rich thanks to our established society, our infrastructure, and etc.. They wouldn't move to another country just because they pay this insignificant little sum. During the Clinton days, the rich would storm into the US because of the tax heaven. The rich, today, are paying very little tax compared to the entire tax history starting from the early 1900s.

Times are tough, the government undoubtedly needs more money but the middle class is hurting so we cannot afford to tax them more. Budget cut are also a must.

[Vedubin01]

Frog, kinda off topic, but where do you live in Atlanta?

[Ryan Stewart]

Notice I didn't say all.

I have family over the 250 bracket, they have so much money they couldn't care less to pay a little more. It really IS a LITTLE more. This doesn't bother them, because they believe (as do I) that they got rich thanks to our established society, our infrastructure, and etc.. They wouldn't move to another country just because they pay this insignificant little sum. During the Clinton days, the rich would storm into the US because of the tax heaven. The rich, today, are paying very little tax compared to the entire tax history starting from the early 1900s.

Times are tough, the government undoubtedly needs more money but the middle class is hurting so we cannot afford to tax them more. Budget cut are also a must.

Here is an idea then, if youre family over 250k thinks they benefit from the system, "can pay more" and want to then they can. Donate. I am nowhere near $250k annually and I can afford to donate. I dont need govt to push my money into inefficient and mostly abused programs. I would prefer the choice to where my money goes. I tend to focus most of my money to medical/dental and food for children as I feel that they are really the only group that doesnt have complete control over their own destiny.

As for "middle class" struggling I'm not so sure. Despite the govt attempting to classify me as upper-middle I feel I am solidly middle. Nobody in my situation is struggling to put food on the table. Sure a lot had to give up houses and move into apartments but its where they belonged in the first place (one reason I have so much disposable right now is I didnt make myself house poor). My biggest frustration with the idea of unemployment and how dire things are is I see others of my own generation that refuse to adapt. They have been on unemployment for an extended time seeking out the same jobs they had before when it was a labor friendly market. You were a c-student who was overpaid to begin with, just because you'd have to take on a dick boss and make $10k less a year doesn't make you "underemployed."

The poor are struggling. They have no skills and with people like me consuming less there is less demand of unskilled labor in retail, manufacturing and such. But there are catch programs for them and I do support such things (although I would rather see shifting to a skills based rehab program instead of a check). I'm not a Christian but "teach a man to fish."

Its all really an attempt at social engineering and it predates Obama, that everyone deserves a perfect smile and a white picket fence. That is not the intention of "life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness."

[Frog]

Frog, kinda off topic, but where do you live in Atlanta?

I currently reside in Roswell.

LOL @ your avatar. So wrong!

[Frog]

Here is an idea then, if youre family over 250k thinks they benefit from the system, "can pay more" and want to then they can. Donate. I am nowhere near $250k annually and I can afford to donate. I dont need govt to push my money into inefficient and mostly abused programs. I would prefer the choice to where my money goes. I tend to focus most of my money to medical/dental and food for children as I feel that they are really the only group that doesnt have complete control over their own destiny.

As for "middle class" struggling I'm not so sure. Despite the govt attempting to classify me as upper-middle I feel I am solidly middle. Nobody in my situation is struggling to put food on the table. Sure a lot had to give up houses and move into apartments but its where they belonged in the first place (one reason I have so much disposable right now is I didnt make myself house poor). My biggest frustration with the idea of unemployment and how dire things are is I see others of my own generation that refuse to adapt. They have been on unemployment for an extended time seeking out the same jobs they had before when it was a labor friendly market. You were a c-student who was overpaid to begin with, just because you'd have to take on a dick boss and make $10k less a year doesn't make you "underemployed."

The poor are struggling. They have no skills and with people like me consuming less there is less demand of unskilled labor in retail, manufacturing and such. But there are catch programs for them and I do support such things (although I would rather see shifting to a skills based rehab program instead of a check). I'm not a Christian but "teach a man to fish."

Its all really an attempt at social engineering and it predates Obama, that everyone deserves a perfect smile and a white picket fence. That is not the intention of "life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness."

Is it safe to assume that gov't is here for the common good? That they're not some evil organization here to steal money or impose a socialist regime? I feel this way.

Everything has some sort of inefficiency, but I assume, you would think that they encourage this inefficiency, and don't strive to increase production and reduce costs?

The rich have many ways to avoid paying taxes, and sadly, a huge percentage of them do.

I seem to agree with most the things you mention in your previous post, so let me ask you: Were the Clinton tax rates for the rich 'excessive'?

[Vedubin01]

"America is a land of taxation that was founded to avoid taxation."

When you have no real accountability to anyone, its really simple to take advantage of its people. Hence our GOV today! The Gov. runs like shit because they hire incompetent people to run departments. Hired not because of their educational history or manageable skills, but because they had to fill quota.

Once in the system, its easy street. Its next to impossible to get fired. Knowing that they coast....

The Federal Reserve is not GOV. but have you kept up with what the Federal Reserve has been doing? Not being held to any accountability?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GYNVNhB-m0o

[joshh]

I'm not saying you have to take responsibility for anyone else. I'm just pointing out, as I did above, that cutting funding to PP would cost you 100x more down the road than keeping it in place.

You guys really are too short-sighted to look 9 months in to the future and realize that a new mom's very first (of many) doctor visits will cost more than a lifetime of birth control pills?

Because these people have been trained by our failing system that they are no longer responsible for their own debt or their own laziness/actions. Start making people responsible for their own costs on this society and you'll see America gain strength again. And some fucking pride again (for those that don't have any).
You go to the ER you get a bill and they intend to collect on it.
I've been to the ER twice before I had insurance for my inner ear condition. You know what we did, we paid them $5-$10.00 a month till it was paid off. I kid you not. We did this and it sucked but we were hurting much worse back then. But we took care of it because it was the right thing to do. Hospitals are pretty easy to work with on payment matters if they see you're trying to pay the bill.
For those who are disabled it's another matter and I'm all for taking care of them.

[z31maniac]

"America is a land of taxation that was founded to avoid taxation."

I didn't watch your video, here at work it's blocked, but the fight wasn't over taxation it was "taxation without representation."

[CorvallisBMW]

Because these people have been train by our failing system that they are no longer responsible for their own debt or their own laziness/actions. Start making people responsible for their own costs on this society and you'll see America gain strength again. And some fucking pride again (for those that don't have any).
You go to the ER you get a bill and they intend to collect on it.
I've been to the ER twice before I had insurance for my inner ear condition. You know what we did, we paid them $5-$10.00 a month till it was paid off. I kid you not. We did this and it sucked but we were hurting much worse back then. But we took care of it because it was the right thing to do. Hospitals are pretty easy to work with on payment matters if they see you're trying to pay the bill.
For those who are disabled it's another matter and I'm all for taking care of them.

It has nothing to do with allowing failure or not. It has to do with preventing a boatload of teen pregnancies that do a great deal of harm to the society which you wish to see 'saved'. Planned Parenthood doesn't enable failure; it gives people the ability to take responsibility for their reproductive health. The girls/women who get birth control are usually poor and without health insurance. They cannot afford full-price prescription drugs and, without the aid of organizations like PP, would not have access to any birth control period. So by making birth control available to them, you give them the ability to take care of themselves, which is exactly what you seem to advocate for; personal responsibility.

You contradict yourself with every post you make :loco:

[Vedubin01]

I didn't watch your video, here at work it's blocked, but the fight wasn't over taxation it was "taxation without representation."

has nothing to do with Taxation. But its the 9 trillion dollars unaccounted for in the Federal Reserve. This is over the last 8 months.....

[joshh]

It has nothing to do with allowing failure or not. It has to do with preventing a boatload of teen pregnancies that do a great deal of harm to the society which you wish to see 'saved'. Planned Parenthood doesn't enable failure; it gives people the ability to take responsibility for their reproductive health. The girls/women who get birth control are usually poor and without health insurance. They cannot afford full-price prescription drugs and, without the aid of organizations like PP, would not have access to any birth control period. So by making birth control available to them, you give them the ability to take care of themselves, which is exactly what you seem to advocate for; personal responsibility.

You contradict yourself with every post you make :loco:

You first have to have a sense of what a consequence is as you're obviously missing that.

If these girls always have a place to go for either an abortion or operations then they have no need for responsibility. And thus will always lean on the rest of us to take care of that need for them. Just in case you missed that, there are no consequences. No one is even knocking on their door for cash. Or in some cases very little cash.
And there's no reason I should have to pay for their child either. That's their problem that they chose to be burdened with. Or their abortion...

Responsibility is learned and taught. It's not a natural inherent human trait. This is why hand outs have proven to be a drain on the system instead of a hand UP.

The more the hand outs=the more Americans look for hand outs and rely on others for their daily needs.

I'd be fine with passing out birth control to a degree.

[joshh]

A girl doesn't use birth control and gets pregnant=not my problem.

A girl uses birth control and gets pregnant=still not my problem.

Why exactly am I paying for her to have an abortion? Because she can't? Maybe she shouldn't be having sex if she can't deal with the consequences of pregnancy! Oh no, that's ridiculous of course because as extreme as that is it's the responsible thing to do. Blasphemy!

I'm also against Medicare and Medicaid unless the person is disabled or has no extended family. Maybe people should treat their families better knowing the family will have to take care of them when they get old. I know that's out of the question because all one needs to do is find a bleeding heart liberal.

[Vedubin01]

A girl doesn't uses birth control and gets pregnant=not my problem.

A girl uses birth control and gets pregnant=still not my problem.

Why exactly am I paying for her to have an abortion? Because she can't? Maybe she shouldn't be having sex if she can't deal with the consequences of pregnancy! Oh no, that's ridiculous of course because as extreme as that is it's the responsible thing to do. Blasphemy!

I'm also against Medicare and Medicaid unless the person is disabled or has no extended family. Maybe people should treat their families better knowing the family will have to take care of them when they get old. I know that's out of the question because all one needs to do is find a bleeding heart liberal.

AMEN! I agree with you Joshh

[CorvallisBMW]

lol @ teens not having sex. Good luck with that one, let me know how it turns out :up:

If you guys want to live in a libertarian society where you pay only minimal taxes and the government has no entitlement programs, handouts, welfare or the like, why don't you just move to some African shithole? Zero taxes, zero government intrusion in to your life, no 'nanny state' BS and certainly no gov't run health care! It'll be perfect for you! You can rely on yourself and only yourself, you don't have to take care of anyone else. It'll be like a joshh/vedubin1 utopia!

[mrsleeve]

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^66

Govt is a necessary evil, and is required to have functional society. You know this though dont you.

You see the idea is to have as little govt as possible. The govt is not supposed to take care of you because you dont have the will to take care of your self. We have had this conversation before.

Your comparison of the Founding Ideals and principals of the USA to modern day Somalia is laughable and kinda sad you keep posting it up like its some kind statement of fact. That cartoon (while moderately humorous) is just a product of those that oppose such ideals with an attempt to paint those of us that hold those ideals close, as back woods fools, that are not enlightened enough or educated or smart enough to GET IT. The thing is we DO GET IT, but see though the rhetoric and foe idealism wrapping for what is really underneath.