Who pays taxes

[joshh]

http://mercatus.org/publication/breakdown-federal-personal-income-taxes

Looks perfectly fair to me...no no no, let's tax them even more!

[dirtysix]

No shit. They also have one of the world's best healthcare systems (I experienced it for myself), an unemployment rate of 4.8%, a booming economy and a populous that is far happier and healthier than that of the US.

Further to that, they have a complex system whereby, once you reach a certain threshold, you are required to pay a further 1.5% towards their Medicare system.

And, of course, the reasons for their success is at lot more complex than that. They massive resources for example.

But our tax system is much more simple and, at the higher levels, lower. Yet people continue to migrate to Aus simply because the opportunities are greater and greater opportunities are always more important than tax rates.

[dirtysix]

http://mercatus.org/publication/breakdown-federal-personal-income-taxes

Looks perfectly fair to me...no no no, let's tax them even more!

To me, you're only stating the bleeding obvious.
Life's not fucking fair!

[joshh]

To me, you're only stating the bleeding obvious.
Life's not fucking fair!

For who?

[87e30]

To me, you're only stating the bleeding obvious.
Life's not fucking fair!

This can go both ways. It's not fair that the rich have more money. Or its not fair that the rich should be taxed more.

Lets see who wins this battle... the rich, maybe? haha

[joshh]

How do you help the poor more than they are already being helped? They pay little to no taxes and we give them "free" food and money? You want to give them "free" medical and a "free" place to live. Rock on, I'm sure they're all going to run out to try to get a job with that kind of *help*.

[dirtysix]

This can go both ways. It's not fair that the rich have more money. Or its not fair that the rich should be taxed more.

Lets see who wins this battle... the rich, maybe? haha

I disagree. For the majority of the, lets call them moderately rich and, for the moment, exclude the absurdly rich, it's entirely fair.
The bulk of them worked their arses off and deserve to be rewarded for it.

My point is that progressively scaled tax brackets are necessary. They may not be fair but again, life isn't fair.

How do you help the poor more than they are already being helped? They pay little to no taxes and we give them "free" food and money? You want to give them "free" medical and a "free" place to live. Rock on, I'm sure they're all going to run out to try to get a job with that kind of *help*.

Ok, I'll play your ridiculous statement game.

What are you going to do? Cut them off completely and let them starve?

[gwb72tii]

No shit. They also have one of the world's best healthcare systems (I experienced it for myself), an unemployment rate of 4.8%, a booming economy and a populous that is far happier and healthier than that of the US.

And to think, some people say that the only way to economic and social prosperity is to cut tax rates for rich people

Taxes are NEVER a disincentive to working harder and making more money. No matter what tax bracket you may or may not move in to, you're still bringing home more money. Would any of our conservative commentators turn down a 50% raise from their boss because they didn't want to pay taxes on it? Of course not.

this argument is simplistic at best
AUS is a natural resources based economy
AUS can thank your political party and bernanke for their economy doing well, and its no surprise with 4.8% unemployment that they'd be happy

[Schnitzer318is]

Looks perfectly fair to me...no no no, let's tax them even more!

That's exactly what has to be done. Like I said, no one likes it... but to get out of the situation we are in... we HAVE to feed the pig.

Everyone here seems to think in terms of class so I'll make this simple. The rich MUST carry the majority of the tax burden, the middle class MUST help them a bit, and the lower MUST continue to scrape by and just pay sales taxes, social security, fuel taxes, etc.

People forget that those that get refunds DID pay taxes, it's just that they overpaid and are getting some of it back. Yes, in the lower class cases they get back more than they put in... they need it.

And furthermore, I would MUCH rather be making 2,000,000+ and getting taxed at 60% than $100,000 and taxed at 10%. As would most of the wealthy, so the old position that higher taxes would discourage people from making more money is just absurd. With the amount of dollars they deal with, they will fight and claw for every $.05 on the dollar just like the did in the 40's and 50's.

[87e30]

That's exactly what has to be done. Like I said, no one likes it... but to get out of the situation we are in... we HAVE to feed t....

Flip it the other way? Tough luck that the bottom half doesn't have money, life isn't fair.

The goal of a more even tax distribution is approaching something that is more equal. Taxing the rich even more just seems more fair since they can afford it, there is nothing more fair about it.

[dirtysix]

That's exactly what has to be done. Like I said, no one likes it... but to get out of the situation we are in... we HAVE to feed the pig.

Ease up fella. You cant expect them to shoulder all the responsibility.

[mrsleeve]

That's exactly what has to be done. Like I said, no one likes it... but to get out of the situation we are in... we HAVE to feed the pig.

Your argument is based on the assumption that the idiots in DC wont just spend it an will actually attempt to pay some of this shit off. You know that wont be the case, so really your point is moot at best.

Everyone here seems to think in terms of class so I'll make this simple. The rich MUST carry the majority of the tax burden, the middle class MUST help them a bit, and the lower MUST continue to scrape by and just pay sales taxes, social security, fuel taxes, etc.

The "Rich" Already do there are how many graphs and charts posed to show you this. Yes the Middle class pay a fuck load as well.

There will always be the lower echelons of society. But they need to be paying taxes as well. I dont think they are "just scraping by" when nearly all of them have new cell phones (not a necessity), Big flat screen tv's ( not a necessity) X-boxes (not a Necessity) Hit the Booze and tobacco hard (not a necessity), see where I am going here. if they can afford all that shit then they can afford to pay some taxes like the rest of us do and maybe try and save or work their way outta the shit hole they are in.

People forget that those that get refunds DID pay taxes, it's just that they overpaid and are getting some of it back. Yes, in the lower class cases they get back more than they put in... they need it.

Why do they need it????? When many of them are already on Welfare, in govt housing, getting food subsidized, why do they need more hand outs when they have their entire lives funded by the forced generosity of the rest of us.

And furthermore, I would MUCH rather be making 2,000,000+ and getting taxed at 60% than $100,000 and taxed at 10%. As would most of the wealthy, so the old position that higher taxes would discourage people from making more money is just absurd. With the amount of dollars they deal with, they will fight and claw for every $.05 on the dollar just like the did in the 40's and 50's.

Well I am sure you would, I would love to make 7 figures, we all would. But I am not going to work my ass off risk everything I have and the security of my families future, to make that kinda money, only to see the govt get more of it than me. Its WRONG and nothing more than legalized theft. If you take away the bulk of the reward for your labors, then why would you out and do it all when it does not benefit you or your family ????

You still have not made 1 single argument that make a lick of sense other than they can AFFORD it and its only fair since they have so much they wont miss a little bit more. You do know that this very thing is why this country exist's right.

You cant feed the pig, the more you feed it the more it grows the more cumbersome it becomes and the more invasive in your life it gets. The federal govt takes in well over 3t in taxes in year as it is now, Why cant they live with in their means???? Thats 20% of GDP for fucks sake 20%. thats should be more than enough.

You have to live with in the confines or your income, I have to, everyone has to or they will end up bankrupt homeless and fucked in general. This is where the govt is now. I know for experience I have been there, the only way out is CUT YOUR SPENDING and pay off your debts, and increase you income. If you are a business you raise your rates for your services or goods too much and people stop buying or calling you. This the same way with taxes, they become to much of burden people will stop or slow producing and taking risks to make that money as the reward is not worth the risk when half or more goes to someone else.

You raise the taxes on 5% on the those that produce things and sell them, all you have done is raise yours and my effective tax rate by 5%. Business dont pay taxes the the customers do and that gets passed on to us the end consumers.




Mr Franklin and Mr Jefferson say it much better than I

I am for doing good to the poor, but...I think the best way of doing good to the poor, is not making them easy in poverty, but leading or driving them out of it. I observed...that the more public provisions were made for the poor, the less they provided for themselves, and of course became poorer. And, on the contrary, the less was done for them, the more they did for themselves, and became richer. - Benjamin Franklin

The democracy will cease to exist when you take away from those who are willing to work and give to those who would not. - Thomas Jefferson

To compel a man to furnish funds for the propagation of ideas he disbelieves and abhors is sinful and tyrannical. - Thomas Jefferson

A wise and frugal government, which shall restrain men from injuring one another, which shall leave them otherwise free to regulate their own pursuits of industry and improvement, and shall not take from the mouth of labor and bread it has earned. This is the sum of good government. - Thomas Jefferson

This is the quote I have tried to live my life by since I read the 1st time in the 7th grade. I keep it in my wallet and try to remind my self of it every day

I’m a great believer in luck, and I find the harder I work the more I have of it. - Thomas Jefferson

I have been very fortunate to be in the position I am in today. There is NO substitute for hard work and determination, if you want it bad enough you will find a way to get there. Your lack of motivation, willingness are not my problem, I have earned my bread, and to force me to give it up to give to some one else is what I find the most insulting. I give freely to charity and would prolly give a great deal more than I do now, to those that really need it if it were not for the shear amount of taxes I have to pay on that bread.

[joshh]

I love when I don't have to answer sometimes. Thank you MrSleeve.

[z31maniac]

There will always be the lower echelons of society. But they need to be paying taxes as well. I dont think they are "just scraping by" when nearly all of them have new cell phones (not a necessity), Big flat screen tv's ( not a necessity) X-boxes (not a Necessity) Hit the Booze and tobacco hard (not a necessity), see where I am going here. if they can afford all that shit then they can afford to pay some taxes like the rest of us do and maybe try and save or work their way outta the shit hole they are in.

This statement is so full of conjecture, I didn't even bother reading the rest of your long winded post that, no doubt, espoused the same shit you always say (with a few ex-presidential quotes in attempt to attach credibility).

Are there some people that are gaming the system? Most definitely. Are MOST people gaming the system? Absolutely not. (See I can make factual sounding claims with no supporting data either!)


I'm guessing you've never actually been in a section 8 housing complex, worked in a neighborhood that gets "hazard pay" because of the crime rate, or actually know anyone that has had to be on public assistance for any length of time.

Because this hysterical view that you have that everyone on welfare is having a hard drinking, dope smoking, iPhone 4 unlimited data plan using, big TV watching party is well, hysterical.

I promise living in neighborhoods where your car window will be shot out at 1pm in the afternoon (happened to one of my older cars while visiting my sister) is not an area most of these people want to be.

So like you stay to everyone else, lose the tired *insert fav political party to bash" talking points and bring something of substance.

[Schnitzer318is]

Your argument is based on the assumption that the idiots in DC wont just spend it an will actually attempt to pay some of this shit off. You know that wont be the case, so really your point is moot at best.

Something we agree on. Congress will have to stop spending AND increase taxes. But I said that in my first post in this thread. My point is not moot at all. By your logic, everything you've said (and everyone else in this thread) would be moot as well since it will almost certainly never be done either. The only ones whose point would be valid would be those who say the government is doing exactly what it should be doing currently.

There will always be the lower echelons of society. But they need to be paying taxes as well. I dont think they are "just scraping by" when nearly all of them have new cell phones (not a necessity), Big flat screen tv's ( not a necessity) X-boxes (not a Necessity) Hit the Booze and tobacco hard (not a necessity), see where I am going here. if they can afford all that shit then they can afford to pay some taxes like the rest of us do and maybe try and save or work their way outta the shit hole they are in.

Why do they need it????? When many of them are already on Welfare, in govt housing, getting food subsidized, why do they need more hand outs when they have their entire lives funded by the forced generosity of the rest of us.

Yes there are those who abuse the system. This is the case in every aspect of life. Everything from super small things like cutting in line, to the rich using CPAs to pay as little tax as possible, to those on welfare who drive new cars. It happens, it's a fact of life. And here's where your point really falters. Those lower class citizens who have the cell phone plans, tv's, etc. have WAY more power to stimulate the economy than the wealthy. Their sheer population numbers mean they are able influence the economy in ways you obviously aren't grasping. BTW, they are paying taxes on all those goods as well. Think of how much fuel taxes are paid by the lower and lower middle class... it must be staggering.

But I am not going to work my ass off risk everything I have and the security of my families future, to make that kinda money, only to see the govt get more of it than me. Its WRONG and nothing more than legalized theft. If you take away the bulk of the reward for your labors, then why would you out and do it all when it does not benefit you or your family ????

Then you are either stubborn, are lying, or you are not comprehending you will still be making more money in that higher tax bracket. It's simple numbers... make $2,000,000 and keep 40% ($800,000) or make $100,000 and keep 90% ($90,000). I'd take keeping less than half of my earnings any day.

Here is the problem with the party system as it is setup. The left thing with their hearts while the right thinks with their wallet. Neither method of thinking will produce a government that is fair to everyone.

BTW, quoting historical figures is not the best way to formulate an argument pertaining to current economic situations. For all you know, given current variables, they would think something completely different. They formed their views based on the situation at hand, not for 200 years in the future.