Who pays taxes

[joshh]

The left thing with their hearts while the right thinks with their wallet.

LMFAO...yeah okay. That's why they stroke the bank accounts of large corporations and engage in voter fraud...because they don't care about votes....just people...

[Schnitzer318is]

LMFAO...yeah okay. That's why they stroke the bank accounts of large corporations and engage in voter fraud...because they don't care about votes....just people...

Both sides do that heavily... especially the stroking accounts issue.

And you quoted something out of context. I said neither way of thinking works. It's kind of interesting you took issue with the thought that the right thinks with it's wallet and seemed to think I was saying the left was somehow better for thinking with it's heart.

[joshh]

Both sides do that heavily... especially the stroking accounts issue.

And you quoted something out of context. I said neither way of thinking works. It's kind of interesting you took issue with the thought that the right thinks with it's wallet and seemed to think I was saying the left was somehow better for thinking with it's heart.

The point was they don't think with their hearts. They are every bit as bad as the Republicans. Even worse in some ways. They think with how to GAIN votes.

[Schnitzer318is]

The point was they don't think with their hearts. They are every bit as bad as the Republicans. Even worse in some ways. They think with how to GAIN votes.

Ok, I'll agree with that. As above, they both do whatever they think will get them in office.

But this is off topic to the thread. Both parties suck and neither one has the answer to the problems of the country.

I just wish there was a party out there that thought with it's brain. With logic... and even more so that there were citizens of this country who do the same. Logically the only thing to do is to cut spending and increase taxes. There is literally, no arguing with that fact.

If any one of us private citizens were in debt we would have to increase earnings and decrease spending to get out of the bad economic situation as quickly as possible. It's just common sense.

[gwb72tii]

Ok, I'll agree with that. As above, they both do whatever they think will get them in office.

But this is off topic to the thread. Both parties suck and neither one has the answer to the problems of the country.

I just wish there was a party out there that thought with it's brain. With logic... and even more so that there were citizens of this country who do the same. Logically the only thing to do is to cut spending and increase taxes. There is literally, no arguing with that fact.

If any one of us private citizens were in debt we would have to increase earnings and decrease spending to get out of the bad economic situation as quickly as possible. It's just common sense.

when will you realize it never has been and is not today a tax rate issue?
its the spending. let me repeat for clarity. ITS THE SPENDING. tax rate hikes have never put a dent in the debt or deficit.
whats the definition of insane? doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different result?

here's another interesting factoid
no matter what marginal rates have been (90% to 28%), the government take of the economy has remained close to 20%
what you get at lower rates is a bigger economy
marginal tax rates matter a lot and most definitely affect behavior, and that's why tax hikes NEVER raise the expected revenue. N E V E R
why also do you think people retire to florida? yes, it is sunny, but its hell in the summer. lower taxes.

[nando]

FWIW, our family income is higher than average, and I probably do not pay enough taxes. I think my tax rate after all the deductions/loopholes is less than 10%. That can't be right.

[mrsleeve]

1st off, Maniac:

Ummm yeah I have been in Neighborhoods that get hazard pay, many of the streets and municipal systems I have built were streets COPS would not go down unless there was a Murder, or other violent crime on and would show. Plus my current line of work has taken me to some very very scary places in Philly, Redding PA, NYC, Allentown, and Baltimore.

Next where I lived in MI much of the city is on the govt dole and has been for decades, and for some stupid reason my BIL moved in with his GF in the middle of the ghetto, she really liked this old huge ass Victorian house so she bought it and has lovingly restored it. But its dead smack in the ghetto. All her neighbors are section 8 for blocks, once huge wonderful Victorian homes form the hay days of the down town districts have been converted to mulit family with 6-12 people in them. She is one of the few people in the entire area there that lives in the same house they own there. I have been there helping my BIL with shit or just for dinner and a gunfight 2 houses over breaks out, and had to dig the bullets outta the side of the house (good thing its brick). Or the drive by and murder of 2 detroit gang members 2 blocks over. Yeah I have some semblance of what its like in the big bad city on the rough side of town too.

You know your right not everyone games the system, I have laid my position on this many times, I dont think I need to do this again.

Something we agree on. Congress will have to stop spending AND increase taxes. But I said that in my first post in this thread. My point is not moot at all. By your logic, everything you've said (and everyone else in this thread) would be moot as well since it will almost certainly never be done either. The only ones whose point would be valid would be those who say the government is doing exactly what it should be doing currently.

Lol yeah you are right there, no arguments. But you cant fix it by just raising taxes, YOU HAVE to cut spending period. We cant afford it.

Most people but the top of the Laffer curve in the US at about 35ish % its been that way for a long time. and you keep guys keep siting the 90% top marginal rates of the 40's. Ummm we had a war on and there was some national unity and sense of duty to do your part to kick the shit outta zeeee Germans and japs. Most of the people that were making that kind of money were making it on govt projects for the war effort.

It was these tax rates after the end war that lead to our system of employee sponsored heath care and other fringe benefits. Since those were not actually Pay and there for not taxes, companies could offer better and better fringe packages to attract the best workers rather than more and more real pay. Well now we have the govt taxing us all even more to pay for all the heath care too. WE just cant afford all the entitlements and shit as it is now.

there is plenty of ways to raise the revenue, bring jobs and attract and encourage businesses back to the states, and fund EVERTHING and the whole 9 yard. With out raising taxes and in fact lowering them. The catch is the govt loses the power to punish and rule with fear and intimidation over the rest of us via the IRS. Fair tax end of story.

Yes there are those who abuse the system. This is the case in every aspect of life. Everything from super small things like cutting in line, to the rich using CPAs to pay as little tax as possible, to those on welfare who drive new cars. It happens, it's a fact of life. And here's where your point really falters. Those lower class citizens who have the cell phone plans, tv's, etc. have WAY more power to stimulate the economy than the wealthy. Their sheer population numbers mean they are able influence the economy in ways you obviously aren't grasping. BTW, they are paying taxes on all those goods as well. Think of how much fuel taxes are paid by the lower and lower middle class... it must be staggering.

You know how you cut down on that. reform the system and cut this cradle to grave entitlement class off. Life is not fair, and living off the labors of others for the loins share of your life is WRONG.

Sorry I am big on personal responsibility. I have no issues at with helping those in need of it, I have issue with those that refuse to take care of them selves and rely on me and you for their prosperity, for their entire lives.

Yeah your right they pay gas taxes and use taxes and what not, but it not nearly as much as you think. about 4% of the population according to the USA today. Yeah I know this argument goes both ways that the entitlements since there are such a small chunk of the budget. I have no disillusion that cutting them off will magically fix the budget, but its part of the pie.

The issue still remain the more you do for someone that they should be doing for them selves the less they will continue to do for them selves and then just rely on you to do it for them. Ever done a joint project in school where 1 guy lays back and you carry them along to get your grade for your self???? Yeah SAME FUCKING THING.

Then you are either stubborn, are lying, or you are not comprehending you will still be making more money in that higher tax bracket. It's simple numbers... make $2,000,000 and keep 40% ($800,000) or make $100,000 and keep 90% ($90,000). I'd take keeping less than half of my earnings any day.

Yes I fully understand that I would be making more money. The issue at hand is the RISK involved with making that money. I would much rather be content with my 90k a year in my pocket in a nice stable job, as that will more than provide for my family and keep me solvent in retirement. WHy do I want to risk my home and put my self into huge debt that I will be on the hook for pass or fail to make even more if the govt is going to take more than 1/2 my reward for taking the risk.

When the govt profits more on MY RISK than I DO, only to propagate its run away spending on programs and things it really has not athourty to do be a part of in the 1st place is

Here is the problem with the party system as it is setup. The left thing with their hearts while the right thinks with their wallet. Neither method of thinking will produce a government that is fair to everyone.

BTW, quoting historical figures is not the best way to formulate an argument pertaining to current economic situations. For all you know, given current variables, they would think something completely different. They formed their views based on the situation at hand, not for 200 years in the future.[/QUOTE]

Life is not fair, and nor should govt be fair. The only in life that is supposed to be fair is the courts.


No Really this is what you guys fail to understand. The wisdom of the founders is not based on what is right for their time, but for all time. No amount of technology or change in time will change this fact.

[gwb72tii]

FWIW, our family income is higher than average, and I probably do not pay enough taxes. I think my tax rate after all the deductions/loopholes is less than 10%. That can't be right.

There is nothing keeping you from paying extra

[Ryan Stewart]

FWIW, our family income is higher than average, and I probably do not pay enough taxes. I think my tax rate after all the deductions/loopholes is less than 10%. That can't be right.

Are you taking in orphans or something? Fuck, I get raped as a single guy without hindrances.

That is another thing that pisses me off about the tax code, its blatant social engineering. Even if you take any class warfare argument out of it the code is just wrong. Its all about bribing you to do things. Buy a house, have kids, etc.

[mrsleeve]

Are you taking in orphans or something? Fuck, I get raped as a single guy without hindrances.

That is another thing that pisses me off about the tax code, its blatant social engineering. Even if you take any class warfare argument out of it the code is just wrong. Its all about bribing you to do things. Buy a house, have kids, etc.

Yes this is for sure. 50 years ago a 30 year mortgage was unheard of, most people bought their homes in CASH or on very short term loans. Look where that got us :(

[nando]

Are you taking in orphans or something? Fuck, I get raped as a single guy without hindrances.

That is another thing that pisses me off about the tax code, its blatant social engineering. Even if you take any class warfare argument out of it the code is just wrong. Its all about bribing you to do things. Buy a house, have kids, etc.

Married with a kid, mortgage, etc. wife works in canada so foreign tax credits. I think only like $5k of her income was taxable? that cant be right?

[Schnitzer318is]

Lol yeah you are right there, no arguments. But you cant fix it by just raising taxes, YOU HAVE to cut spending period. We cant afford it......

Now we are getting somewhere... I agree with most of your responses and am actually very big on personal responsibility. Right now we need to cut spending, as you said, like social welfare, medicare (gasp), defense (double gasp), defense, and a whole host of other departments... including the IRS. Streamline the tax system. No deductions/exemptions, just a straight graduated tax rate system. 0% for less than $15000, 5% for 15k - 40k, 10% for 40k - 100k, 15% for 100k - 200k, 25% for 200k - 1,000,000, and 40% for 1,000,000+. These are just rough numbers as an example, no thought was put into them as to their feasibility.

The thing I do disagree with you on, and we will likely do so forever, is the tax rates. We were funding a war in the 30's and 40's... but we should have been funding a war in the 90's and 00's as well as currently with those same high tax rates. We have troops everywhere.

We can have all our social welfare programs back and all the tax cuts people want when our country is back in the black and social security has been fully refunded. To get there we are all going to have to make sacrifices, it just turns out that it should hit the rich the hardest, because let's face it... they have to $$$. The poor and lower classes will still have to give up a lot of social welfare programs as well, so the burden is not squarely placed on the upper echelon of society.

For those in that high tax bracket... I'll quote an historical figure I guess, "ask not what your country can do for you, but what you can do for your country." It has to be done and SHOULD be just temporary until the country gets out of debt.