Ahh yes, one of THOSE church vans

[FunfGan]

One is just as likely to conceive a creator as they are a creation, in any form. How could somebody imagine a creation happening w/ no person or being to create said creation?

Im purely curious how you see this.

[cale]

You see yourself as a creation because it is part of your religious views, views which you have been handed down or picked up when you were of an age to form opinions. Seeing ones self as a creation is not a default position.

[Sample UF]

I have yet to have anyone suffienciently explain to me how the pressence of God can be disproved by knowing that water is made up of helium and oxygen, or that BMW made the E30. The two are not neccissarily mutually exclusive.

I've never tried to disprove the existence of a god, why would I waste my time going down that road? It can not be proven, nor disproved.

I stated the difference between knowledge and perception.

You cannot claim that your god is truth without knowledge and empirical evidence of their existence, however, you can believe in their existence and think it to be true.

Knowing something and thinking/believing in that idea are completely different. Which is what I was trying to show.

I've expressed my openness and disinterest towards the possibility of a creator figure, as much as I have a big bang theory, an alien experiment, or any other conceptual idea. All are possibilities that are unproven, some are however looked at in a more scientific nature than others.

"True Christians", and other Religious fanatics, however, completely dismiss the possibility of anything other than their idea of a creator figure, called "god". In fact believe that by stating the possibility of the big bang theory and other concepts, we're "selling a fairy tale".

There's a large difference between opposing religion, and opposing the concept of monotheism.

[KenC]

Yes, Its a thing called Social Security. Taking money from those who have rightfully earned it, to those who have done to earn it, and have no incentive to because they are being handed money for doing nothing. Why would they work? Its spreading of the wealth bud.

Jesus loved spreading the wealth. I thought you said you read the Bible?

[Eecen]

All not exclusive to early American history, or to Christianity for that matter.........

So your point is what exactly????

I'm aware of that.
My point is that the early days of your country were not all of that fantastic for everyone involved. And in my opinion early "god fearing" American society was a lot worse when it came to racism, cruelty, bigoted points of view etc than your current "un-godly" society. It is hard to make any comparison though, as the population of the US has increased so much since the late 1700s.

Canada was just as bad in many respects, if not worse. So was the UK..etc if my nit-picking the US is your issue.

[dinanm3atl]

Early 'Americans' and for that matter world wide had Christianity because let's be fawking honest with ourselves life sucked. It was AWESOME to have this hope that while you were a peasant that shoveled shit you had the CHANCE if you did the right thing to go to heaven after you died from the god damn plague. It worked. It had it's place. This fear of going to hell also helped. Not only did your earth life suck but if you did not follow these rules you would be shoveling more shit in hell...

I understand that. This is when religion took hold. When people had such low life expectations that having some sort of hope to cling too was worth being delusional. Also things could be said to be miracles that were brought from 'god' much more easily. Less science means less explanations. Your priest was possibly the only person you knew who could read so one would look up to them as being smart... if they are smart and they believe... what were you to think?

You fast forward to today and "God" has less and less of a place in society. More has been explained. More people are educated now a days and I believe more and more those that have generations of Christianity in their family(or other religion) are slowly but surely going out and thinking and forming their own thoughts about their life.

[mrsleeve]

I'm aware of that.
My point is that the early days of your country were not all of that fantastic for everyone involved. And in my opinion early "god fearing" American society was a lot worse when it came to racism, cruelty, bigoted points of view etc than your current "un-godly" society. It is hard to make any comparison though, as the population of the US has increased so much since the late 1700s.

Canada was just as bad in many respects, if not worse. So was the UK..etc if my nit-picking the US is your issue.

Ummmm really there was little to NO racism in early America a Man was A MAN. No more no less and at nearly every battle of the revolutionary war from the Boston massacre (the shot heard round the world) to the British surrender at Yorktown Blacks and whites fought side by side and died fighting for the same cause. There were black elected leaders and judges, since the 1640's here the racism your thinking of is largely a product of the reconstruction era, and even then the 1st black speaker of the house was sent from SOUTH CAROLINA in 1878 IIRC..

The 1st slave owner in the US was a BLACK MAN. The biggest Slaver in the US was a BLACK MAN, the 1st "slave" was a black indentured servant that had been caught running away for the 3rd or 4th time and a judge as his punishment for the crime had his indenturement extended to life this was the precedent. please get your history correct before spitting out what passes for history class now.


And yes they were much better in terms of human freedoms.

[FunfGan]

You see yourself as a creation because it is part of your religious views, views which you have been handed down or picked up when you were of an age to form opinions. Seeing ones self as a creation is not a default position.

How is that possible? There is no arguing that everything, and everyone was created. By an explosion that triggered many more events, or by a creator. How does man see them selves "naturally"? Oh knower of all things.

Jesus loved spreading the wealth. I thought you said you read the Bible?

Yes, selfless, unforceful giving out of ones own charity. What socialism and spreading the wealth encourages is taking ones hard earned money forceful, and giving it to those less fortunate. Now the biggest difference is the way in which the people who are given said money react to charity from a kind person, and from the government. Charity from a kind fellow or gal encourages people that there are good people, and in fact hope. In turn, helping encourage the receiver of said money/ charity develop hope, and a drive to do well and be a better person/ more successful. Now when straight from the government, it is a guaranteed, lump sum of cash every month. There is no charity, no personal interaction or connection. If one is simply handed money for doing nothing, and can live just fine mooching anonymously off of other people, what encouragement do they have to try? They can just sit back and be handed cash.

[KenC]

Yes, selfless, unforceful giving out of ones own charity. What socialism and spreading the wealth encourages is taking ones hard earned money forceful, and giving it to those less fortunate. Now the biggest difference is the way in which the people who are given said money react to charity from a kind person, and from the government. Charity from a kind fellow or gal encourages people that there are good people, and in fact hope. In turn, helping encourage the receiver of said money/ charity develop hope, and a drive to do well and be a better person/ more successful. Now when straight from the government, it is a guaranteed, lump sum of cash every month. There is no charity, no personal interaction or connection. If one is simply handed money for doing nothing, and can live just fine mooching anonymously off of other people, what encouragement do they have to try? They can just sit back and be handed cash.

Not the definition of socialism. But hey, what would I know? I only have a degree in the subject...


What does socialism have to with religion anyway?

[FunfGan]

Not the definition of socialism. But hey, what would I know? I only have a degree in the subject...


What does socialism have to with religion anyway?

You did ask what was wrong with giving money. I explained that, and told you what our current government is doing.

[FunfGan]

found this by accident, amazing video:

http://www.morningstartv.com/oak-initiative/marxism-america

[frankenbeemer]

found this by accident, amazing video:

http://www.morningstartv.com/oak-ini...arxism-america

He lost me at "I'm a green beret". Who cares? Same for the rest of this thread. Amusing picture of a church van (displaying the kind of intolerance Jesus would be ashamed of) turns into piss contest featuring butt hurt bible thumpers. Good stuff.:up:

[cale]

How is that possible? There is no arguing that everything, and everyone was created. By an explosion that triggered many more events, or by a creator. How does man see them selves "naturally"? Oh knower of all things.

Being the outcome of cosmic circumstance does not make one a creation, especially when you're talking of religious creation.

The default stance is what you possess when you're a child or part of a civilization unexposed to theism, total lack of knowledge to the proposition of a deity. Once you've been exposed to someone else's beliefs on the matter you form a conclusion based on outside influences and you're no longer holding the default position.

[FunfGan]

He lost me at "I'm a green beret". Who cares? Same for the rest of this thread. Amusing picture of a church van (displaying the kind of intolerance Jesus would be ashamed of) turns into piss contest featuring butt hurt bible thumpers. Good stuff.:up:

Hey, I'm not the one getting pissed off. I have not used one word out of anger ahah, the other dudes are flipping the hell out

[FunfGan]

Being the outcome of cosmic circumstance does not make one a creation, especially when you're talking of religious creation.

The default stance is what you possess when you're a child or part of a civilization unexposed to theism, total lack of knowledge to the proposition of a deity. Once you've been exposed to someone else's beliefs on the matter you form a conclusion based on outside influences and you're no longer holding the default position.

I'm still just confused on what that makes something. How can one exist if they were not created? As I said, forget about theism or atheism here.