Ahh yes, one of THOSE church vans

[cale]

When it comes to religious discussion, creation always denotes divine creation which is why I'm wary of using that word. Yes you could say we are created from natural cosmic processes...but it's too easy to confuse that for ones which are influenced by divine intervention.

[Eecen]

Sleeve...Maybe I should've said early god-fearing societies, instead of American society and used those off hand examples? Maybe you have an image in your mind of a sparkling metropolis, where everything is perfect when you think of America in the mid 1700s? Come on man, it wasn't all peaches and rainbows. Either way let me re-phrase for you...

I know you're not American, but surely you can see how much better the early days of our country were compared to the secularly based, un-godly, un-Christianized American Society of today.

Early god fearing Societies pale in comparison to modern un-godly Societies. (There see, I took 'merica out, that stick still lodged in your ass?) Yes, there are ridiculous, greedy, pathetic aspects to the society(s) we live in currently, but it is fucking light years ahead of the ass-backwards, closed minded, human indecencies that prevailed in the past...and hey guess what those things I just mentioned, well they were either perpetuated by religion, religion was used to perpetuate them, or religion was used as an excuse for their existence in the first place.

But is "modern" society actually any better...its hard to say. I have faith that humanity can "learn to get along" eventually. But yeah, there is a lot of fucked up shit going on on this planet. Maybe if parents could actually parent properly, and not raise horrible people there would be a hope for us...but apparently there has to be a "parenting certification" program that people have to pass before being allowed to re-produce. LoL. Not that something like that is possible. Or that anyone would ever accept it. The idea sounds too 1984'esk.



Also, since I spent some time writing this out before what I wrote whats up top.
-----------------------------------------------

Ummmm really there was little to NO racism in early America a Man was A MAN. No more no less and at nearly every battle of the revolutionary war from the Boston massacre (the shot heard round the world) to the British surrender at Yorktown Blacks and whites fought side by side and died fighting for the same cause. There were black elected leaders and judges, since the 1640's here the racism your thinking of is largely a product of the reconstruction era, and even then the 1st black speaker of the house was sent from SOUTH CAROLINA in 1878 IIRC..

A man was a man, unless he belonged to another man? Were those blacks fighting for the idea that was the US, or the promise of freedom? How many slaves fled to the British and fought for them with for promise of freedom?

Operation Black Shield?
What were women?

Anyways, this is a religious discussion, not historical. I am in no way saying all Americans of the late 17th and early 18th centuries were racist, horrible people, but there were alot who were. And life sucked for a lot of people back then. Life sucks for lots of people still, but its a different kind of "suck."

Also, I'm not trying to nit pick the US. Quit getting so fucking protective of your country. Every nation, and group of people did fucked up things in the past.
Double also; I'm genuinely curious, where did the KKK, and segregation come from?

The 1st slave owner in the US was a BLACK MAN. The biggest Slaver in the US was a BLACK MAN, the 1st "slave" was a black indentured servant that had been caught running away for the 3rd or 4th time and a judge as his punishment for the crime had his indenturement extended to life this was the precedent.

ok then? I'll bet that black slaver was a Christian too? Same with the indentured servent.

I'm not trying to rag on whitey here. Just Christian hypocrisy.

And yes they were much better in terms of human freedoms.

Unless you happened to be poor, an indentured servant (yes I looked it up) or anything other than a white European? I'm sure some indentured servants were treated well during and after their work terms...but why did wealthy farmers move towards slavery instead of indentured servants?

Part of it was economical as less people felt the need to leave Europe to survive, but part of it was greedy land owners wanting....well slave labor.

please get your history correct before spitting out what passes for history class now.

No I'm not a historian. What exactly did I say that was soo historically inaccurate though?

Slavery happened in the US, and the colonies.
Witches got burned in the US, no my mistake, the colonies.
Natives got butchered in the US. This one is complicated I realize. Both sides did some very evil things.

Also where is your starting point for "early American Society"? Post, or pre revolutionary war?
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[KenC]

found this by accident, amazing video:

http://www.morningstartv.com/oak-ini...arxism-america

I turned it off after he said the bailout was aimed to nationalize the economy. He should stick to shooting guns.

You're buying what this guy is saying?

[KenC]

You did ask what was wrong with giving money. I explained that, and told you what our current government is doing.

Which was in response to a former comment of yours implying that socialism was some sort of indicator of poor/ungodly morals or disposition of the general populace.

[ck_taft325is]

Wait, I missed this for 12 pages?


Sonuvabitch.

I was busy watching life occur.

Honestly, to think you're more "evolved" or "smarter" (Bill) because you don't have a religion, or believe in a "God" or "Deity" is just as bad as a Christian, or any other religion feeling as though they are better. You've missed the point on both sides when your initial approach is one of hostility towards the other thinking they cannot or mutually will not exist. To exasperate and throw all yourself on the rocks of "I'm better or smarter simply because I xyz" is moronic and single minded. Or, if you don't understand where I'm coming from with that, "unscientific". Science is about asking questions, finding answers and accepting the "true" reality of things. If at ANYTIME you go about your search for truth and reality/rational in with the intention or bias towards something else you would in essence be coming from an irrational stand point or "worldview" as Bill brought up. Again, Bill, your quote alone shows your over all premise and worldview blatantly. Until you would be able to compound your bias and overt... disdain, for religion or someone else's views, there's no point in talking, is there?

As for the thread, yeah, they missed the point. A majority of Christianity has missed the point. The Bible itself speaks on the tears from those who led their entire lives thinking they where "in the right" and realizing at that final step that they where wrong when they stand before God. So, so many will be broken and their already blatant disregard for the Bible's teachings will be shown. Not only that, they will I believe have a chance to recant, remove those things from themselves but think, no, they "deserve" "heaven".

Again, this is all great that we can throw opinions and the like around but honestly, who gives a fuck? Mutual respect is mutual respect. Either you can make the choice to be respectful or not. Making a thread because of stupid ass hats mocking everyone for the "irreligious" practices is pretty stupid in hind sight. And to those claiming there was no harm meant, that very well may be, but, that doesn't give license to say that there's not an over abundance of Christian bashing. Here or otherwise. And if you're so much better as you claim to be than these people that put stupid ass slogans and such on their vans and drive around feeling high and might, wouldn't it be great if you didn't in turn do the same thing? Food for thought.

[mrsleeve]

A man was a man, unless he belonged to another man? Were those blacks fighting for the idea that was the US, or the promise of freedom? How many slaves fled to the British and fought for them with for promise of freedom?

How many fought for the republic for the same promise????

Anyways, this is a religious discussion, not historical. I am in no way saying all Americans of the late 17th and early 18th centuries were racist, horrible people, but there were alot who were. And life sucked for a lot of people back then. Life sucks for lots of people still, but its a different kind of "suck."

Yes some were just like in all socites though out history, but in early us colonial history this was not the norm.

Also, I'm not trying to nit pick the US. Quit getting so fucking protective of your country. Every nation, and group of people did fucked up things in the past.
Double also; I'm genuinely curious, where did the KKK, and segregation come from?

Just trying to correct some of the common misconceptions of what is passed off in history class for the bulk of our country and yours . Look at the Reconstruction era of US history Post Civil war and you will find the answers you seek. And many many many more if you look hard enough.

Unless you happened to be poor, an indentured servant (yes I looked it up) or anything other than a white European? I'm sure some indentured servants were treated well during and after their work terms...but why did wealthy farmers move towards slavery instead of indentured servants?

Poor or not you always had the opportunity to drag your ass out of it, and this is why people willingly signed up for indenturement, to have a chance at becoming something other than a peasant farmer, and give their children a greater chance at a life of freedom than cast system they were doomed to in europe. That was a choice and made of their own free will.

Part of it was economical as less people felt the need to leave Europe to survive, but part of it was greedy land owners wanting....well slave labor.

It was not slave labor, it was a contract that you entered into, the land owner lives up to his end of the bargain, by paying your passage across the Atlantic and in return you were to work for him for a prescribed number of years 15 was the norm IIRC.



No I'm not a historian. What exactly did I say that was soo historically inaccurate though?

Slavery happened in the US, and the colonies.
Witches got burned in the US, no my mistake, the colonies.
Natives got butchered in the US. This one is complicated I realize. Both sides did some very evil things.

Also where is your starting point for "early American Society"? Post, or pre revolutionary war?
-----------------------------------------------[/QUOTE]

[Kershaw]

Ummmm really there was little to NO racism in early America a Man was A MAN. No more no less and at nearly every battle of the revolutionary war from the Boston massacre (the shot heard round the world) to the British surrender at Yorktown Blacks and whites fought side by side and died fighting for the same cause.

i guess blacks and whites fought side by side slaughtering the native americans. but they arent really people, so they dont factor into "no racism in early america." amirite?

[mrsleeve]

^
Oh we are not going to go around this again. But yes I suppose you are correct, in that respect, I was referring to the more traditionally thought of White/Black racism and you know it ;)

but there were lots of Red men that were on both sides of the revolution as well both friendly to settlers and hostile. But you know this too amirite??

[Kershaw]

of course i do. and the reasons for them being on both sides are different. siding with the gb, "if you side with us, you kill the people that killed a lot of your people." "ok we side with you." but then they died. siding with the usa, " if you side with us, we will make sure you always have your land." but oh wait, we actually need that land. "hey uh... why dont you move to oklahoma?" no? you're not being very nice. we're going to kill you till you agree with us.

but to say there was little to no racism in early america is false. even between blacks and whites. and especially against the american indians.

[mrsleeve]

Again with the modern rose colored glasses analysis of Colonialism we have had this conversation before haven't we .......

[Kershaw]

Look!


i was there.



















:pimp:

[mrsleeve]

I love you to Kershaw. We need to have a beer next I in your neck of the woods, would make for an interesting night to say the least. You will have to come to me though I cant take my work truck into MD, your state has really stupid laws governing my activity.

[Kershaw]

:up:

[joshh]

As much as I hate Christianity, I'd take them in a heart beat over Liberals.

[markseven]

^ Speaking of the atheists that have respect and common decency, a few are mrsleeve, joshh and Z31Maniac. My hats is off to you boys. I know there are more, but these guys come to mind right away.