Ahh yes, one of THOSE church vans

[ck_taft325is]

I'm not religious per say but I'm not a atheist whose a hater either. As a kid I went to youth groups and church as a kid when my parents were still in bed on sundays or watching tv on Wednesdays. I got out of it because certain things did bug me.

One was how a lot of these churches were trying to recruit younger people by associating fun with religion. I went to Hume Lake in California and they had a zip line, paintballing and all this other shit you did for the rest of the day that was wicked awesome until the end of the day everyone was like shit now we have to do the religious thing. We sang songs from current day hit lists and sang some more. Then there was the message.

On the surface that sounds fine because hell its a camp but thats exactly what pissed me off so much. It felt like such a blatant bait and switch, as if these people know the formula on how to get to certain people in and they'll do it to the T. There was no regard on how the message was being given, just as long as it was given to these young minds while they were to pre occupied to be distracted.

This same thing happens with missionaries when they go abroad and give starving people food and dying people water only if they hear the message of why God is giving them these essentials for living. I don't like mission trips, but I went more than a couple of times to Mexico to build houses and we wouldn't say a single word of preaching to these people. We were just glad to build houses for people who didn't have any, and that is the good part of religion I can stand.

I just think its a bit selfish of the organization, exactly what Cale was saying, to spread the word after you make sure to make the people you're trying to help associate Christianity with survival. Isn't it good in Gods eye just to be good people without spreading the word? Why does there have to be this mission to spread the word. Why can't people come to the religion instead of the other way around?

By now I live as a skeptic and unfortunately Christianity falls through the cracks first. Also unfortunately is that how ever much good has become because of religion just as much bad has come out too. You can't just keep saying the origin of all that bad are from the fringe groups or the crazies. You must remember that being Christian you must be the first to admit that you are a sinner, and sinners do some amazingly bad shit if they know it at the time or not. I won't say that about EVERYONE, because only Sith deal in absolutes, but its too many to shove under the carpet to be just the 'fringe'.


Edit: And to why atheists can are the ones that lash out first against religion can be explained several ways. First in this country religion is associated with almost an entire political party in which we only have two major ones. Even a lot of Democrats find it necessary to some how associate themselves with some sort of church. That means the people who are making laws have the huge potential to make some that are based off of old and new church doctrines.

Now that looks fine on the surface but that leads to the second part. No matter how much evidence or how much faith you have, If you look at Christianity (and most all other religions) rationally, then you can't support religion. People who claim to support Christianity with ration are people who've already made the leap of faith so therefore can only see it as being rational. Our scientific theories stand to ration because theories are always challenged with either new question, new reasoning or new evidence. So to wrap that up I can see why atheists can be mad about religion. Yes, some go stupidly out of their way to tear down some religious tradition that is much part of this country as their willing to admit but at the same time their anger... or to properly categorize it as fear, is that indeed Christianity can and does make it's way into legislation.

I know that some one is going to jump on that last sentence and I'll clarify this, Christian morality or code of conduct is not something new when it was put in the Bibles or even the Ten Commandments.

Cool.


To claim that you only base your worldview off of rational and reason would be a great leap of faith in yourself as how can you truly know you've found that great "reason" and "truth" inherently by whim? Have you visited the great thinkers of your time to test your worldview and knowledge against what they might have to offer? Are you operating in your worldview and self view on the premise that what you know is real and everything else must be tested? Or is it the reverse, that you're testing everything you "know" against what other's "claim"? See, there's a pretty large grey area here that you're trying to paint black or white, i.e "Faith" vs " Science". Have you delved into the reasoning that you are wrong and might very well be completely off base? My point isn't that you can't come to these practices or assumptions or anything else reasonably and with rational, I'm saying that everything takes some form of "Faith" when it comes down to it. You can penalize Christian's or "Religion" for having "faith" in something when everyone does to some degree or another.

As for the bad? Yeah, of course there's been a lot of bad things done by bad men. Tons. Loads. That's actually talked about a lot in the Bible. It's the Bad Men that fuck it all up to begin with. It's the Bad Men that continue to fuck it up for everyone. As you said and several others have said, if it wasn't for the big names on the Television begging for your money and driving around with signs (the reason this thread was created) not many people would have an issue with Christian's. It's not the per se the Christian's as it is the Fringe group of radicals and BAD PEOPLE. The same type of bad people are in the scientific world as well. You know the ones. The ones that get so angry over religion they end up looking crazy. Or the ones that did some pretty bad shit to some pretty innocent Jew's back in the Hitler era. Right? But I don't sit here and try and say all scientists are crazy wack jobs that want to burn Jew's in ovens and gas Children, am I?

[markseven]

The only issues that I am aware of are gay marriage and abortion. And these very rarely come up in Church or small groups; the focus is inward, not outward... I think some of the televangelists and people that go on the news shows make it appear that we are mobilizing, but in reality what we are doing is voting.

I forgot to mention that we are voting along the same lines as Muslims, Hindus, Jews, and of course conservative atheists and agnostics.

Cool.


To claim that you only base your worldview off of rational and reason would be a great leap of faith in yourself as how can you truly know you've found that great "reason" and "truth" inherently by whim? Have you visited the great thinkers of your time to test your worldview and knowledge against what they might have to offer? Are you operating in your worldview and self view on the premise that what you know is real and everything else must be tested? Or is it the reverse, that you're testing everything you "know" against what other's "claim"? See, there's a pretty large grey area here that you're trying to paint black or white, i.e "Faith" vs " Science". Have you delved into the reasoning that you are wrong and might very well be completely off base? My point isn't that you can't come to these practices or assumptions or anything else reasonably and with rational, I'm saying that everything takes some form of "Faith" when it comes down to it. You can penalize Christian's or "Religion" for having "faith" in something when everyone does to some degree or another.

As for the bad? Yeah, of course there's been a lot of bad things done by bad men. Tons. Loads. That's actually talked about a lot in the Bible. It's the Bad Men that fuck it all up to begin with. It's the Bad Men that continue to fuck it up for everyone. As you said and several others have said, if it wasn't for the big names on the Television begging for your money and driving around with signs (the reason this thread was created) not many people would have an issue with Christian's. It's not the per se the Christian's as it is the Fringe group of radicals and BAD PEOPLE. The same type of bad people are in the scientific world as well. You know the ones. The ones that get so angry over religion they end up looking crazy. Or the ones that did some pretty bad shit to some pretty innocent Jew's back in the Hitler era. Right? But I don't sit here and try and say all scientists are crazy wack jobs that want to burn Jew's in ovens and gas Children, am I?

Nicely done, sir.

[cale]

I forgot to mention that we are voting along the same lines as Muslims, Hindus, Jews, and of course conservative atheists and agnostics.

This is true on abortion and gay marriage, but church groups DO make up a huge portion of the voting community, and do vote similarly based on a candidates religious standing. Politicians sell themselves to these groups for this fact!

For the record, I'm by no means liberal. I'm pro gun, anti abortion and not entirely sold on gay marriage. That's why I had to throw up a WTF at

As much as I hate Christianity, I'd take them in a heart beat over Liberals.

[joshh]

While I have said some harsh stuff about Christianity, I have several friends that are Christian and are great people. I just roll my eyes when they bring it up. For the most part it does not effect the friendship.
I'll discuss it at any time if they're willing to hear my brutally honest opinion.

Liberals however want to force me to do things they say are good for me...whether I like it or not.

[joshh]

This is true on abortion and gay marriage, but church groups DO make up a huge portion of the voting community, and do vote similarly based on a candidates religious standing. Politicians sell themselves to these groups for this fact!

For the record, I'm by no means liberal. I'm pro gun, anti abortion and not entirely sold on gay marriage. That's why I had to throw up a WTF at

The difference is Christians are not trying to change my/Americas way of life to that degree like Liberals are. While someone may bring their Christianity to work it doesn't directly effect me because the vast majority of Christians are more Conservative and vote that way more than Progressive.
It's impossible to keep religion out of Government when people that are religious are in Government. They think with their religion. You can say the same thing about Liberals minus the word *religion*.
Christians for the most part do not want a welfare state like Liberals do.

[markseven]

This is true on abortion and gay marriage, but church groups DO make up a huge portion of the voting community, and do vote similarly based on a candidates religious standing. Politicians sell themselves to these groups for this fact!

For the record, I'm by no means liberal. I'm pro gun, anti abortion and not entirely sold on gay marriage. That's why I had to throw up a WTF at

As for politicians selling themselves, OBH is pandering to both sides with his "evolving" stance on gay marriage. Same is true with the conservative candidate - I vote for the lesser of the evil.

[immajackuup]

churches are scams!!! all they want is your money.

[dubsport87]

churches are scams!!! all they want is your money.

how insightfull

[herbivor]

Cool.
My point isn't that you can't come to these practices or assumptions or anything else reasonably and with rational, I'm saying that everything takes some form of "Faith" when it comes down to it. You can penalize Christian's or "Religion" for having "faith" in something when everyone does to some degree or another.

The dictionary's definition of faith is "belief that is not based on proof." That said, I do not think everything has to take some form of faith. The big difference with regards to religious faith is that any scientists would be willing to throw away their "faith" upon discovery of evidence that produces a better explanation or understanding of the universe whereas one can't say the same for religious faith.

This reminds me of a story by the Dali Lama. When he was a boy in Tibet, IIRC, he was taught that there were a species of men of a higher spirituality that lived on the moon. This was taught for centuries in Tibet Buddhism up until the 1930's. When he was first given access to a telescope, he discovered instantly no such thing existed. Rather than rationalize why his faith was correct, he simply dismissed it, and told his people, the centuries of teachings were wrong.

The last decade or so of neuroscience has come close to discovering the source of the "soul" and particle physicists are leading the discovery towards the source of the universe. When you read and understand these discoveries for yourself, it is like the Dali Lama looking into the telescope.

[joshh]

^^Example....you have faith in Global Warming.

[mrsleeve]

Zing............................

[herbivor]

^^Example....you have faith in Global Warming.

:nice: Yes. Although, as stated above, I'd gladly abandon that faith if better evidence came along that supports a different observation. But let's save that debate for another thread.

There are universal observations that have been proven such as gravity exists, the earth rotates around the sun, and your mom gives good handjobs. Some things have sufficient evidence that provide a good explanation of observation, but may not necessarily qualify as "proof". GW is an example. Whereas there is absolutely no evidence to sufficiently explain the existence of God. So I'm not sure you can compare faith in God with faith in science as being of similar convictions.

[FunfGan]

:nice: Yes. Although, as stated above, I'd gladly abandon that faith if better evidence came along that supports a different observation. But let's save that debate for another thread.

There are universal observations that have been proven such as gravity exists, the earth rotates around the sun, and your mom gives good handjobs. Some things have sufficient evidence that provide a good explanation of observation, but may not necessarily qualify as "proof". GW is an example. Whereas there is absolutely no evidence to sufficiently explain the existence of God. So I'm not sure you can compare faith in God with faith in science as being of similar convictions.

Well looky there, I have proof AND faith that you're 10 years old.

And I think since their is proof that txts and story's from the Bible is true, proves that it indeed inspired writing by a God above. So yes, our faith is comparable.

See this for just a handful of proofs that support the Bible as a whole.

http://www.answersingenesis.org/articles/nab/does-archaeology-support-the-bible

[cale]

I was almost willing to click that link and then I saw the website. Try linking to a resources which have been provided by individuals who actually went to school and are leading in their field of study.

There's a reason the bible is seen as nothing more than fiction in the academic world, it's not that there is some underlying motive by scientists to ignore it...it simply doesn't hold up to scrutinization. It falls apart, a sign that there is little to no truth in it.

[FunfGan]

There a real, ancient documents(as I said before) that are in there. You can look them up anywhere else, I just thought that was a nice collection. If you choose not to look? Oh well. Not my life, nor my choice.