The Unions killed the Twinkie

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  • nando
    Moderator
    • Nov 2003
    • 34827

    #16
    this company was already in serious trouble as others said. the strike just broke the camel's back.

    I did hate working in a union. yeah, I made OK money - but it also meant that lazy assholes who did 1/4 the work that I did made just as much if not more, and there was no way to get a pay increase based on merit, only based off union negotiations. minus the stupid dues and fines they'd charge me if they forgot to take it out of my paycheck..
    Build thread

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    • reelizmpro
      R3V OG
      • Dec 2003
      • 9444

      #17
      I avoid this part of R3v because everyone has their opinion depending on what side of the fence they are on but it never seizes to amaze me how many people are quick to blame Unions (the workers). Let me remind you that the US itself is a Union (and we pay taxes). Lemme guess...you don't like the US either and rather move to Europe or Canada, yet you remain. Why do you think your forefathers came here in the first place? We have the freedom to organize, one of the many that are slowly being stripped from us. This country was founded on Unions as there is strength in numbers. Sure, individuals can take advantage of this power and some people even abuse it but which would you rather have in a global economy...Union greed or Corporate greed? you choose. At least local workers/families can live a good life, start businesses, reinvest and stimulate the economy and hold the employers accountable instead of the government.

      I can't speak on other industries or what happened with Hostess and why the Union went on strike but I will tell you right now, in the maritime industry, at least 80% of the terminals on the west coast are leased and operated by foreign companies. Do you think they invest their profits in your community? All the while, shitting in your backyard? The shipping industry produces megatons of exhaust particulates. Ship engines are the biggest in the world. That's the air we all breathe. How do they get away with it when CA has the toughest smog laws??? It's all about the fucking money! Almost half of the country's imports comes through CA ports thanks to China so naturally they are exempt yet our cars have to run squeaky clean with lower HC/CO/NOx limits than any other state. Shit slides downhill.

      People like to think that Union's are unnecessary, they were needed in the past but not now. Why not now? Business is business...buy or keep costs low and sell high. Corporate greed hasn't changed. The workers will get shitcanned and persecuted while the top execs get million dollar bonuses. You know it happens yet people still sympathize with employers. I'm not talking about the little guy but big business and that's where Union's are needed the most. Why do you think people Unionized to begin with? Without Unions we'd probably end up like China. Sure they have a lot of work but are the workers earning a livable wage? Would you move to China for work? Jobs don't mean much if you aren't earning a livable wage. You guys ask why Union's don't promote on merit, well they feel that since they give the workers power, why bust your ass to get the job done faster for less money. Working slower creates more work and it's safer. Of course, some Unions will abuse this power to the point where it's no longer profitable for the employer but it's hard to say if the Union is to blame (in the Hostess situation) or is it simply the corporation failing. Union's have been used as scapegoats for many failed corporations. Again, take it out on the workers but give the execs bailouts and million dollar bonuses. Shit slides downhill. Do you think execs get hired solely on merit? Do you think most high paying jobs hire based solely on merit? I know they should...but do you really think they do? As long as people do the hiring you will always have some form of favoritism. Whether it be a family member, bribe or an attractive woman. Let's just be real for a second and think about it.

      My theory on Hostess is this...in this day and age with obesity and counting calories, I'd bet there has been a drastic decline in sales and there would be with or without a Unionized workforce. Hostess probably tried to do what most companies do...shitcan the workers, lower wages, cut benefits to offset the loss in profit and the Union wouldn't go for it. This is just one scenario but a common one. Shit slides downhill.

      Look at big business and political parties as unions because in essence that's what they are. They look out for their buddies and do things for each other to make sure their interests are taken care of. Except they are not a labor union, they are a union (they won't call themselves that, they will use "Association") of employers and policy makers. At the end of the day, it's all about the money and the 1% is untouchable so let's hang the workers...those greedy bastards. Who are they to want a better life? yet again...shit slides downhill.

      In closing, there has to be balance where both parties are happy. Unions are put into place to make sure there's balance otherwise we'd all be day laborers working for the lowest bid (safety concerns? lead paint in China? cutting corners? etc etc etc) or depending on the government to keep employers in line (yeah right). Remember, those same employers put certain people in government and when Unions try to do the same, they want to silence them (see prop 32). Unions have been under attack for a while now and they want people to resent the labor Unions and vote against them in hopes of crippling them. What people don't realize is that they are voting against themselves...the people, the workforce.
      Last edited by reelizmpro; 11-16-2012, 12:31 PM.
      "I'd probably take the E30 M3 in this case just because I love that little car, and how tanky that inline 6 is." - thecj

      85 323i M TECH 1 S52 - ALPINEWEISS/SCHWARZE
      88 M3 - LACHSSILBER/SCHWARZE
      89 M3 - ALPINEWEISS II/M TECH CLOTH-ALCANTARA
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      • mar1t1me
        E30 Modder
        • Sep 2009
        • 863

        #18
        Why is it no one ever lays the accountability on the management who, through their decisions, drove the company into bankruptcy more than once?

        These corporate types always seem to land on their feet no matter how bad they fuck over a company, but the workers.....not as much.....

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        • dannyyisntt
          No R3VLimiter
          • Sep 2008
          • 3141

          #19
          Great. What are we going to eat during the 2012 apocalypse now?
          sigpic

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          • Farbin Kaiber
            Lil' Puppet
            • Jul 2007
            • 29502

            #20
            Yeah, because we have tons of workers that would otherwise die in garment factory fires.

            Personally, unions are ok with me only for highly skilled trades, grocery baggers, donught bakers, hairstylists, janitors, etc. don't need to be Unionized.

            When the "freedom to organize" takes away the freedoms of others, it is a hypocritical move, and an excuse for a whole bunch of people getting paid just to get paid off the labor of others. Why not have the union leaders be volunteer members of the actual workforce?

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            • bmwstephen
              R3VLimited
              • May 2009
              • 2463

              #21
              Originally posted by mar1t1me
              Why is it no one ever lays the accountability on the management who, through their decisions, drove the company into bankruptcy more than once?

              These corporate types always seem to land on their feet no matter how bad they fuck over a company, but the workers.....not as much.....
              for the most part, most of the major decision makers post bankruptcy were not old management. in fact, newly appointed management by the court or creditors themselves who were supposed to objectively restructure/turn it around with no previous vested interest. their decisions to cut costs across the board, not just to management was justified. failure for anyone to accept, be it the executive, mailroom boy, or the assembly line worker clearly means they misunderstand how business works. giving any of those morons the power to stall a viable option is ridiculous. in hostess's case, the union was the major player and their stall tactic fucked it up

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              • Ryan Stewart
                I Love Miatas
                • Oct 2003
                • 8978

                #22
                Originally posted by Farbin Kaiber
                Personally, unions are ok with me only for highly skilled trades, grocery baggers, donught bakers, hairstylists, janitors, etc. don't need to be Unionized.

                When the "freedom to organize" takes away the freedoms of others, it is a hypocritical move, and an excuse for a whole bunch of people getting paid just to get paid off the labor of others. Why not have the union leaders be volunteer members of the actual workforce?
                For the first point I feel the opposite. Id think the skilled trades would need the unions less because of the power that comes with their skills. In college I killed it in a merit based shop doing electrical work and make serious bank. I picked shit up faster than others and managed to move into the service side quickly, meaning I was more directly hourly billable and more directly responsible for the quality of my work. Being merit I was compensated as such. I managed to throw 4k into my retirement account in a single summer, was awesome. I started lower than your average apprentice but quickly jumped to near journeyman wages (remember that I was a part-timer) on merit, something I certainly couldnt do in a union shop.

                The baggers, on the other hands, are basically warm bodies. They have virtually no economic power, Id think those would be the ones who would benefit from the unions. Being said, I think worker protections are there to prevent them from being at risk of becoming slaves.

                I do concur on the union leaders part. They did a series in a local paper about the Kansas City based unions and it was pretty sad. The vast majority of the "leadership" of the union were families and friends doing jobs that have a tenuous relationship, at best, with the benefit of the labor force and making $100k+ while doing it. Its hard to claim the owners/management are a bunch of cronies when you are making $150k and paying your nephew with no education $80 to be some sort of community outreach coordinator.
                Im now E30less.
                sigpic

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                • regnu
                  E30 Enthusiast
                  • Sep 2006
                  • 1048

                  #23
                  John

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                  • reelizmpro
                    R3V OG
                    • Dec 2003
                    • 9444

                    #24
                    Other Unions (eastcoastmobtiesperhaps) may be different but in mine the higher ups are all voted in by the membership and serve a term just like any other political figure. They make what they make because they play a key role in contract negotiations, how the Union is run and have a huge responsibility. These are not guys off the street. These are guys and gals with 20+ years experience in the industry because of the seniority system and guess what? everyone started at the bottom. If I get a family member in, he starts at the bottom...no matter who I am. No one got passed up on promotions because of skin color, sex, sexual preference, etc...all of which were major problems in the past. Now some of you may say, well that's the past and things are different. Things are not that different. It's going to take longer than our lifetimes for things to truly change.

                    Ryan, I hear you but if you look at the big picture they are your neighbors and maybe even your family members if not now, then someday. It's better us (the workforce) than them (the 1% who doesn't give a shit about you or your community). $80-150K? some hip hop artists/athletes spend that in one night. Put it in perspective...you realize that some corp execs get 3-4x that as a BONUS? Let's think about that a second. Half a Mill to a Million dollar BONUS, that's in addition to whatever their salary is and if they are getting that as a BONUS, you can imagine what their salaries are. Don't be appalled by $80-150K...be appalled by what the higher ups make if you can find out since they try to hide it.

                    We need more jobs with good salaries to stimulate the economy. I know it's shitty to think you go to school and get all this education yet some kid with a HS diploma gets a job through a connection and makes more than you but guess what...IT HAPPENS ALL THE TIME, UNION OR NOT. At least in a Union you don't have to worry that the kid you are training is going to replace you next week at half the pay. Or being the kid who has way more responsibility for the pay and doing a bosses job. Any of this sound familiar to anyone?
                    You can't condemn people for being born with a silver spoon in their mouth, can you? Some people are born with connections, some have to attain them. If you're not doing that, you are on the outside looking in. How many women have slept their way to the top? What can you do to stop that? As long as men are in control, women always have that card to play. Life is not fair, nor does it have to be. It's a contact sport.
                    Last edited by reelizmpro; 11-16-2012, 04:39 PM.
                    "I'd probably take the E30 M3 in this case just because I love that little car, and how tanky that inline 6 is." - thecj

                    85 323i M TECH 1 S52 - ALPINEWEISS/SCHWARZE
                    88 M3 - LACHSSILBER/SCHWARZE
                    89 M3 - ALPINEWEISS II/M TECH CLOTH-ALCANTARA
                    91 M TECHNIC CABRIO TURBO - MACAOBLAU/M TECH CLOTH-LEATHER

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                    • rwh11385
                      lance_entities
                      • Oct 2003
                      • 18403

                      #25
                      Originally posted by nando
                      this company was already in serious trouble as others said. the strike just broke the camel's back.
                      This. Too bad most news and social media are a cesspool of misinfortmation and simplistic thinking.

                      And I'd be shocked if the brands people care about aren't bought. The company (Interstate Bakeries Corporation) was in bankruptcy for years and turned down an offer in 2007 before being bought by PE. I doubt they won't try to recoup their investment.

                      Assuming that Twinkies are killed because the company that bought the company which created is being liquidated is ignoring Cracker Jacks still exist.

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                      • Vedubin01
                        R3V Elite
                        • Jun 2006
                        • 5852

                        #26
                        Originally posted by rwh11385
                        This. Too bad most news and social media are a cesspool of misinfortmation and simplistic thinking.

                        Maybe Romney should pick this up on Bankruptcy Court and turn it around. ;)



                        Build your own dreams, or someone else will hire you to build theirs!

                        Your signature picture has been removed since it contained the Photobucket "upgrade your account" image.

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                        • Exodus_2pt0
                          R3V Elite
                          • Dec 2011
                          • 5943

                          #27
                          Go to ebay and type in Twinkie. It has begun.
                          No E30 Club
                          Originally posted by MrBurgundy
                          Anyways, mustangs are gay and mini vans are faster than your car, you just have to deal with that.

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                          • Farbin Kaiber
                            Lil' Puppet
                            • Jul 2007
                            • 29502

                            #28
                            Who would go and buy twinkies to sell on ebay? ;)
                            Last edited by Farbin Kaiber; 11-16-2012, 05:16 PM.

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                            • reelizmpro
                              R3V OG
                              • Dec 2003
                              • 9444

                              #29
                              Originally posted by rwh11385
                              This. Too bad most news and social media are a cesspool of misinfortmation and simplistic thinking.
                              THIS. In fact, the media is a tool for these "associations" to persecute Union's whenever negotiations stall or go bad. This happened in 2002 when the "association" locked down their own terminals and told the media it was a strike when in fact it was a lockout. So everyone watching TV can pass judgement and curse the Union for being greedy. Yes, it happened. Don't get programmed by the media. Be there and get your own facts.
                              Last edited by reelizmpro; 11-16-2012, 05:01 PM.
                              "I'd probably take the E30 M3 in this case just because I love that little car, and how tanky that inline 6 is." - thecj

                              85 323i M TECH 1 S52 - ALPINEWEISS/SCHWARZE
                              88 M3 - LACHSSILBER/SCHWARZE
                              89 M3 - ALPINEWEISS II/M TECH CLOTH-ALCANTARA
                              91 M TECHNIC CABRIO TURBO - MACAOBLAU/M TECH CLOTH-LEATHER

                              Comment

                              • rwh11385
                                lance_entities
                                • Oct 2003
                                • 18403

                                #30
                                Originally posted by Vedubin01
                                Maybe Romney should pick this up on Bankruptcy Court and turn it around. ;)



                                Why would he fare any better than the current owners who did the same thing?

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