The Unions killed the Twinkie

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  • rwh11385
    lance_entities
    • Oct 2003
    • 18403

    #46
    Originally posted by ZoomZoomBoom
    Yeah, as if you know my background. SMNF
    Regardless of background, ignoring information and posting memes instead leads us towards idiocracy.

    Comment

    • uofom3
      R3V Elite
      • Jan 2004
      • 5392

      #47
      Originally posted by reelizmpro
      I avoid this part of R3v because everyone has their opinion depending on what side of the fence they are on but it never seizes to amaze me how many people are quick to blame Unions (the workers). Let me remind you that the US itself is a Union (and we pay taxes). Lemme guess...you don't like the US either and rather move to Europe or Canada, yet you remain. Why do you think your forefathers came here in the first place? We have the freedom to organize, one of the many that are slowly being stripped from us. This country was founded on Unions as there is strength in numbers. Sure, individuals can take advantage of this power and some people even abuse it but which would you rather have in a global economy...Union greed or Corporate greed? you choose. At least local workers/families can live a good life, start businesses, reinvest and stimulate the economy and hold the employers accountable instead of the government.

      I can't speak on other industries or what happened with Hostess and why the Union went on strike but I will tell you right now, in the maritime industry, at least 80% of the terminals on the west coast are leased and operated by foreign companies. Do you think they invest their profits in your community? All the while, shitting in your backyard? The shipping industry produces megatons of exhaust particulates. Ship engines are the biggest in the world. That's the air we all breathe. How do they get away with it when CA has the toughest smog laws??? It's all about the fucking money! Almost half of the country's imports comes through CA ports thanks to China so naturally they are exempt yet our cars have to run squeaky clean with lower HC/CO/NOx limits than any other state. Shit slides downhill.

      People like to think that Union's are unnecessary, they were needed in the past but not now. Why not now? Business is business...buy or keep costs low and sell high. Corporate greed hasn't changed. The workers will get shitcanned and persecuted while the top execs get million dollar bonuses. You know it happens yet people still sympathize with employers. I'm not talking about the little guy but big business and that's where Union's are needed the most. Why do you think people Unionized to begin with? Without Unions we'd probably end up like China. Sure they have a lot of work but are the workers earning a livable wage? Would you move to China for work? Jobs don't mean much if you aren't earning a livable wage. You guys ask why Union's don't promote on merit, well they feel that since they give the workers power, why bust your ass to get the job done faster for less money. Working slower creates more work and it's safer. Of course, some Unions will abuse this power to the point where it's no longer profitable for the employer but it's hard to say if the Union is to blame (in the Hostess situation) or is it simply the corporation failing. Union's have been used as scapegoats for many failed corporations. Again, take it out on the workers but give the execs bailouts and million dollar bonuses. Shit slides downhill. Do you think execs get hired solely on merit? Do you think most high paying jobs hire based solely on merit? I know they should...but do you really think they do? As long as people do the hiring you will always have some form of favoritism. Whether it be a family member, bribe or an attractive woman. Let's just be real for a second and think about it.

      My theory on Hostess is this...in this day and age with obesity and counting calories, I'd bet there has been a drastic decline in sales and there would be with or without a Unionized workforce. Hostess probably tried to do what most companies do...shitcan the workers, lower wages, cut benefits to offset the loss in profit and the Union wouldn't go for it. This is just one scenario but a common one. Shit slides downhill.

      Look at big business and political parties as unions because in essence that's what they are. They look out for their buddies and do things for each other to make sure their interests are taken care of. Except they are not a labor union, they are a union (they won't call themselves that, they will use "Association") of employers and policy makers. At the end of the day, it's all about the money and the 1% is untouchable so let's hang the workers...those greedy bastards. Who are they to want a better life? yet again...shit slides downhill.

      In closing, there has to be balance where both parties are happy. Unions are put into place to make sure there's balance otherwise we'd all be day laborers working for the lowest bid (safety concerns? lead paint in China? cutting corners? etc etc etc) or depending on the government to keep employers in line (yeah right). Remember, those same employers put certain people in government and when Unions try to do the same, they want to silence them (see prop 32). Unions have been under attack for a while now and they want people to resent the labor Unions and vote against them in hopes of crippling them. What people don't realize is that they are voting against themselves...the people, the workforce.
      That's a lot of points but it ignores the fundamentals - union labor is not efficient for business. It can be directly linked to the death of the American auto and airline industries for instance. You talk about corporate greed? Few portions of society are greedier and act more entitled than unions. Good for Hostess - I would have canned all 18k of them, reincorporated elsewhere in different state and started over with a non-unionized labor force.

      Sounds harsh I know - but it's business.
      PNW Crew
      90 m3
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      • ZoomZoomBoom
        E30 Addict
        • Oct 2012
        • 475

        #48
        Originally posted by rwh11385
        Regardless of background, ignoring information and posting memes instead leads us towards idiocracy.
        This thread is serious business. Hardcore dude, hardcore.
        1989 325iC Zinnoberrot

        Comment

        • randomtask37
          No R3VLimiter
          • Oct 2003
          • 3154

          #49
          Originally posted by uofom3
          That's a lot of points but it ignores the fundamentals - union labor is not efficient for business. It can be directly linked to the death of the American auto and airline industries for instance. You talk about corporate greed? Few portions of society are greedier and act more entitled than unions.
          I'm all for union-free, but unions are not the bane of business. The way i see it, Unions have provided a checks and balance system in our country. There is greed on both sides - Management and Union. If labor relations are conducted properly, business can function efficiently.

          Originally posted by uofom3
          Good for Hostess - I would have canned all 18k of them, reincorporated elsewhere in different state and started over with a non-unionized labor force.

          Sounds harsh I know - but it's business.
          You cant just move states, reincorporate and go union-free with a company like Hostess. And they aren't re-incorporating, they are tanking.

          For example, Boeing got in deep shit with the government a few years back when they had a strike occur in a facility in... I think Oregon, and at the same time were building a new facility in South Carolina. They opted to move the great majority of Oregon's work to SC to avoid the union. I don't remember the details but i know the government prevented start up at their SC facility until they worked out the issues in Oregon.

          This is coming from someone who sits on the management side of the table during a grievance meeting.
          98 M3/4/5

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          • reelizmpro
            R3V OG
            • Dec 2003
            • 9444

            #50
            First of all US automakers have faced declining sales a while now due to imports which is y we r on this forum. Seems to me,the UAW simply asked for too much money. They made $69 a hour and up assembling GM's! But this begs the question....why did GM agree to that wage?
            "I'd probably take the E30 M3 in this case just because I love that little car, and how tanky that inline 6 is." - thecj

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            • mikeedler
              R3V OG
              • Feb 2004
              • 6707

              #51
              America is dieing. The cars, the food, and now the whole Obama deal. Get out while you still can!

              Comment

              • Kershaw
                R3V OG
                • Feb 2010
                • 11822

                #52


                But while headlines have been quick to blame unions for the downfall of the company there’s actually more to the story: While the company was filing for bankruptcy, for the second time, earlier this year, it actually tripled its CEO’s pay, and increased other executives’ compensation by as much as 80 percent.
                oh yeah, this company was well run.
                AWD > RWD

                Comment

                • Vedubin01
                  R3V Elite
                  • Jun 2006
                  • 5852

                  #53
                  Originally posted by Kershaw
                  http://thinkprogress.org/economy/201...esss-downfall/



                  oh yeah, this company was well run.

                  something GM also did to help keep talent.
                  Build your own dreams, or someone else will hire you to build theirs!

                  Your signature picture has been removed since it contained the Photobucket "upgrade your account" image.

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                  • rwh11385
                    lance_entities
                    • Oct 2003
                    • 18403

                    #54
                    Hipsters rejoice: http://gothamist.com/2012/11/17/twin...up_hope_pb.php

                    Originally posted by http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2012-11-16/pabst-owner-metropoulos-is-considering-bid-for-hostess-brands.html
                    “Our family would love to purchase these iconic brands,” said Daren Metropoulos, a principal at the Greenwich, Connecticut-based firm, which paid $250 million for Pabst in 2010. “We are actively pursuing this deal as no doubt strategics will also.”
                    C. Dean Metropoulos, founder of the firm, has specialized in purchasing struggling brands, such as Chef Boyardee and Bumble Bee Tuna and turning them around. The firm paid close attention to the maker of Twinkies and Wonder Bread during its bankruptcy proceedings, Daren Metropoulos has said.

                    “We have analyzed this opportunity very carefully for a few years now,” Metropoulos said in an e-mail. “Shedding the complications of the unions and old plants makes it even more attractive.”

                    More on the PBR owner and his history of making money on old food and beverage brands:
                    Investor C. Dean Metropoulos made a fortune building well-known consumer brands including Bumble Bee Tuna and Vlasic Pickles. Now, he is looking to wash them down with a Pabst Blue Ribbon.

                    Peter Lattman profiles C. Dean Metropoulos, and investor who has made a fortune rebuilding well-known brands like Bumble Bee Tuna and Vlasic Pickles. Now, he is looking to wash them down with a Pabst Blue Ribbon.

                    Mr. Metropoulos, a 64-year-old executive known for invigorating brands, has reached an agreement to buy Pabst Brewing Co. from the charitable foundation that owns the company for about $250 million, according to people familiar with the matter.

                    Although little known outside of food circles, he earned a fortune managing brands such as Chef Boyardee, Duncan Hines and Ghirardelli Chocolates.
                    The company also owns such time-worn labels as Schlitz, Old Style, Lone Star and Colt 45.

                    Woodridge, Ill., Pabst operates as a virtual brewer, owning the brand names of products, which are brewed under contract with beer giant MillerCoors LLC.
                    Likewise, he could use the brands from Hostess and having them contract baked within the overcapacity in the industry and use his experience to grow (instead of let die off) the brands and increase sales globally.
                    Last edited by rwh11385; 11-17-2012, 09:10 AM.

                    Comment

                    • nando
                      Moderator
                      • Nov 2003
                      • 34827

                      #55
                      that would be great. it would also prove how badly managed the brand/company was before.

                      speaking of dying brands - how many more years will Sears survive as is? yeah eddie lampert isn't stupid, but the stores are terrible and the remaining goodwill in brands like Craftsman are seriously fading as the quality disintegrates.
                      Build thread

                      Bimmerlabs

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                      • ForcedFirebird
                        R3V OG
                        • Feb 2007
                        • 8300

                        #56
                        Originally posted by nando
                        that would be great. it would also prove how badly managed the brand/company was before.

                        speaking of dying brands - how many more years will Sears survive as is? yeah eddie lampert isn't stupid, but the stores are terrible and the remaining goodwill in brands like Craftsman are seriously fading as the quality disintegrates.
                        Because Chinese labor. Why let it be made in USA when you can outsource and make a bunch of profit just before your company goes belly up. Craftsman has been outsourcing for a few years now. First they dropped the lifetime on most tools, then stopped contracting American tool and die companies.

                        Believe it or not Lowe's Kobalt tools are made in USA, I have been using them for a couple years, put impacts on 12pt sockets, even, and only had one socket split in an industrial situation - 17mm deep from impacting e30 wheels on/off lol.
                        john@m20guru.com
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                        • nando
                          Moderator
                          • Nov 2003
                          • 34827

                          #57
                          yeah, and it's not helping them either. go into any sears, it's like a ghostown in there. if I want cheap made in china junk, I'll go to HF where at least the prices match the quality.
                          Build thread

                          Bimmerlabs

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                          • mrsleeve
                            I waste 90% of my day here and all I got was this stupid title
                            • Mar 2005
                            • 16385

                            #58
                            While I am as free market as the next guy, I like how all the blame is placed at the feet of the union. Yes they for sure should have a significant share of the blame placed on their shoulders, what about the piss poor management at the top on the Hostess's side of things and after all they signed the labor contracts in the 1st place, they must have known they could not follow though with them long ago when the last deal was inked.


                            Broad strokes with the lazy union guys here fellas. We have had many a customer come to us in recent years, because they were sick of the poor quality workmanship of many of our NON union competitors. We may cost more by the day and by the hour per crew by as much as 15%, (that I have seen) but when you can do the same job with 1 or 2 less crews, we actually end up cheaper at the end of the job by a large margin. Not to mention most of us "company hands" stay busy because we take pride in our work and make sure we do the job to the standard we are being paid to do. We have had our share of shitty hall placements, they are the last ones to the job and the 1st to get laid off, and we dont hire them back.

                            Then again I am in the trades, in most cases you get what you pay for. The trades are still a place where the the Unions serve a purpose. When you have a contractor that needs 14 guys Tomorrow or monday for a 14 days shutdown, with 1 or 2 phone calls, you have them, and know that with in reason you have 14 guys that are well trained, and capable of doing the work you need done with in the time you need it done. With out a pool (you know union hall) to draw from where are you going to get 14 highly trained people to come to work for you for only 14 days??? [

                            Look I agree the system is not perfect and like everything else management has become disconnected with rank and file. And there are plenty of places where the union model is out dated and really is a hindrance, but to say they are no longer needed or serve a purpose anywhere or in any industry is fools folly.
                            Originally posted by Fusion
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                            The Desire to Save Humanity is Always a False Front for the Urge to Rule it- H. L. Mencken

                            Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants.
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                            • reelizmpro
                              R3V OG
                              • Dec 2003
                              • 9444

                              #59
                              Originally posted by nando
                              that would be great. it would also prove how badly managed the brand/company was before.

                              speaking of dying brands - how many more years will Sears survive as is? yeah eddie lampert isn't stupid, but the stores are terrible and the remaining goodwill in brands like Craftsman are seriously fading as the quality disintegrates.
                              I recently read a story about Sears selling the Bionic Wrench (designed and made in USA) then later stopped placing orders because they copied it and came out with a Craftsman version for less money (made in China). Sears has been in trouble a while now too and stuff like this leaves a bad taste in people's mouths. Its just business right? I guess the workers are to blame right? Sears stopped investing in their stores to revive their image a long time ago.
                              Last edited by reelizmpro; 11-17-2012, 04:35 PM.
                              "I'd probably take the E30 M3 in this case just because I love that little car, and how tanky that inline 6 is." - thecj

                              85 323i M TECH 1 S52 - ALPINEWEISS/SCHWARZE
                              88 M3 - LACHSSILBER/SCHWARZE
                              89 M3 - ALPINEWEISS II/M TECH CLOTH-ALCANTARA
                              91 M TECHNIC CABRIO TURBO - MACAOBLAU/M TECH CLOTH-LEATHER

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                              • reelizmpro
                                R3V OG
                                • Dec 2003
                                • 9444

                                #60
                                Originally posted by uofom3
                                That's a lot of points but it ignores the fundamentals - union labor is not efficient for business. It can be directly linked to the death of the American auto and airline industries for instance. You talk about corporate greed? Few portions of society are greedier and act more entitled than unions. Good for Hostess - I would have canned all 18k of them, reincorporated elsewhere in different state and started over with a non-unionized labor force.

                                Sounds harsh I know - but it's business.

                                Union greed doesn't hold a candle to corporate greed. I never heard of a Union official getting a million dollar BONUS for doing his job while the workforce is struggling and the corporation is getting bail out money from the government. 80-150K is a joke to these guys, yet everybody is mad (jealous?) about the little guy making that much. My Union is huge, but we don't have a single jet, helicopters, houses, rental car pools, luxury box at the Staples center, limo's, all of these expenses that are labeled as "cost of doing business" are being abused by the company execs. Wanna talk about entitlement? Union's just want to work. Everything is negotiated in the contract. They don't work without a contract...so what's the problem? You blame the Union for asking for a high wage, yet not the company for agreeing to it? Sounds 50/50 to me.

                                Good read...
                                http://management.fortune.cnn.com/20...kies-bankrupt/


                                "Rayburn announced that the pay of the four top executives would go down to $1 for the year, but that their full salaries would be reinstated no later than Jan. 1. Hostess pays Rayburn $125,000 a month, according to court filings. At the same time Rayburn became CEO, Gephardt's son Matthew, 41, the COO of the Gephardt Group, was put on the Hostess board as a $100,000-a-year independent director."

                                Hmmmm this is EXACTLY what someone was just complaining about certain Union's doing...interesting. Told you it happens all the time, yet no one blames the companies.

                                So this is Hostess's 2nd bankruptcy in 5 years. They've had 6 different CEO's in 10 years. Hostess wanted more cuts in labor but the Union already agreed on concessions in previous contract and didn't want to give away more. Should be interesting to see what happens.
                                Last edited by reelizmpro; 11-17-2012, 04:49 PM.
                                "I'd probably take the E30 M3 in this case just because I love that little car, and how tanky that inline 6 is." - thecj

                                85 323i M TECH 1 S52 - ALPINEWEISS/SCHWARZE
                                88 M3 - LACHSSILBER/SCHWARZE
                                89 M3 - ALPINEWEISS II/M TECH CLOTH-ALCANTARA
                                91 M TECHNIC CABRIO TURBO - MACAOBLAU/M TECH CLOTH-LEATHER

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