The Unions killed the Twinkie

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  • Farbin Kaiber
    Lil' Puppet
    • Jul 2007
    • 29502

    #61
    Sounds like all that union talk has driven you to despise success. Instead of people being driven by people being successful, nowadays they piss and moan about it not being fair.

    Comment

    • randomtask37
      No R3VLimiter
      • Oct 2003
      • 3154

      #62
      Originally posted by reelizmpro
      First of all US automakers have faced declining sales a while now due to imports which is y we r on this forum. Seems to me,the UAW simply asked for too much money. They made $69 a hour and up assembling GM's! But this begs the question....why did GM agree to that wage?
      They made $69 an hour? for production line workers?!?!?! that is absolute insanity. no wonder they went bankrupt. $15-$30 an hour would be fair depending on the job.


      also, right on Mr. Sleve
      98 M3/4/5

      Comment

      • mrsleeve
        I waste 90% of my day here and all I got was this stupid title
        • Mar 2005
        • 16385

        #63
        ^

        They did not make 69 bucks an hour. Its a misnomer and shocking 1/2 truth used to stir up this kind of vulgarity for all things union, even with benefits most long seniority (15 + years) production workers were in the upper 20's to low 30's per hour. The 70 an hour figure is what GM had to figure for "labor costs" to pay its current staff and paying its retirement commitments to its half a million retirees
        Originally posted by Fusion
        If a car is the epitome of freedom, than an electric car is house arrest with your wife titty fucking your next door neighbor.
        The American Republic will endure until the day Congress discovers that it can bribe the public with the public's money. -Alexis de Tocqueville


        The Desire to Save Humanity is Always a False Front for the Urge to Rule it- H. L. Mencken

        Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants.
        William Pitt-

        Comment

        • reelizmpro
          R3V OG
          • Dec 2003
          • 9444

          #64
          Originally posted by mrsleeve
          ^

          They did not make 69 bucks an hour. Its a misnomer and shocking 1/2 truth used to stir up this kind of vulgarity for all things union, even with benefits most long seniority (15 + years) production workers were in the upper 20's to low 30's per hour. The 70 an hour figure is what GM had to figure for "labor costs" to pay its current staff and paying its retirement commitments to its half a million retirees

          Thanks for clearing that up. I got that figure from an article online. Just goes to show how things get misrepresented and twisted.
          "I'd probably take the E30 M3 in this case just because I love that little car, and how tanky that inline 6 is." - thecj

          85 323i M TECH 1 S52 - ALPINEWEISS/SCHWARZE
          88 M3 - LACHSSILBER/SCHWARZE
          89 M3 - ALPINEWEISS II/M TECH CLOTH-ALCANTARA
          91 M TECHNIC CABRIO TURBO - MACAOBLAU/M TECH CLOTH-LEATHER

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          • randomtask37
            No R3VLimiter
            • Oct 2003
            • 3154

            #65
            that makes more sense
            98 M3/4/5

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            • DaveSmed
              E30 Fanatic
              • Apr 2007
              • 1406

              #66
              Originally posted by Vedubin01
              something GM also did to help keep talent.
              Keep the talent that drove them into the ground in the first place and then left anyway?

              In hindsight, it looks like all that money miiiiight have been better spent trying to keep the workers, not the CEO with all the business sense of a cupcake. Turns out when he left, the company kept going. When the workers left, notsomuch.

              Unions did not kill Hostess, doubling down on stupid decisions did. Union or non-union, any company run by morons is going to lack a positive outlook.

              Here's hoping the guys with vested pensions at least get a piece of the liquidation. They earned it. Management didn't.
              -Dave
              2003 Lincoln Towncar | 1992 BMW 325iC | 1968 Cadillac Deville

              Need some help figuring out the ETM?

              Comment

              • mulletman
                E30 Modder
                • May 2012
                • 801

                #67
                Originally posted by DaveSmed
                Keep the talent that drove them into the ground in the first place and then left anyway?

                In hindsight, it looks like all that money miiiiight have been better spent trying to keep the workers, not the CEO with all the business sense of a cupcake. Turns out when he left, the company kept going. When the workers left, notsomuch.

                Unions did not kill Hostess, doubling down on stupid decisions did. Union or non-union, any company run by morons is going to lack a positive outlook.

                Here's hoping the guys with vested pensions at least get a piece of the liquidation. They earned it. Management didn't.
                Amen.

                This whole "executive bonus to retain top talent" while in bankruptcy is a load of BS. It's become common for executives to build entire careers of driving companies into bankruptcy, then pulling massive bonuses and walking away. Meanwhile, they've destroyed the livelihood of a few thousand people.

                Honestly, this nation desperately needs more jobs that will support middle-class lifestyles. Some unions do help to provide that. In some situations, a union isn't necessary... but there are other industries (such as the one I'm in) in which labor unions are absolutely critical to the functioning of the entire industry, and the safety of the general public. No company has ever been 'saved' by labor concessions. Sure, maybe it helps them limp along another month or two, but if the business model is such that giving your employees a cost-of-living increase is going to destroy your ability to exist, you were doomed anyway.

                Originally posted by uofom3
                That's a lot of points but it ignores the fundamentals - union labor is not efficient for business. It can be directly linked to the death of the American auto and airline industries for instance. You talk about corporate greed? Few portions of society are greedier and act more entitled than unions. Good for Hostess - I would have canned all 18k of them, reincorporated elsewhere in different state and started over with a non-unionized labor force.

                Sounds harsh I know - but it's business.
                You are retarded if you think that unions have killed the airline industry. Seriously retarded. The Delta guys have taken a 70% pay cut since 2000. United, US Airways, Northwest, Continental... All have taken at least 50% cuts, and had their pensions stolen. I am an airline pilot, and I will make under $30,000 this year. The education required to get to a job like mine costs over 100k. The most recent contract at my company offers 1.5% pay increases for 4 of the next 6 years. That doesn't even keep up with inflation at roughly 3-4% per year. I don't get paid for the time I actually spend at work. I absorb more radiation due to the time spent at altitude than almost any other job, which results in much higher than average cancer rates for airline pilots.

                I'd like to make a wage that is commensurate with my skills, experience, and personal exposure. How is that 'greedy?' Meanwhile, the president of my company makes more money than Gary Kelly, the Southwest Airlines CEO. My company is very small, with 48 airplanes compared to Southwest's almost 600. As I detailed above, the American Airlines management team is currently trying to walk off with roughly 60 MILLION each. For doing nothing but destroying a company.

                And don't hide behind "it's harsh, but it's business." Business is no cover for a complete lack of moral fiber. Business is not an excuse for the destruction of lives. Frank Lorenzo had pilots committing suicide due to the stresses of what he was doing to their company and their ability to provide for their families. The lives of your employees should be more important than the almighty dollar. Business efficiency is not the highest good. Slavery is really fucking efficient. Try walking a mile in the shoes of an airline pilot, then you can speak to me about the greed of the employees.

                Honestly, the fundamental problem lies with the consumers. They search for the cheapest ticket, bar none. With zero regard for their personal safety, they will purchase a ticket. The Colgan crash in Buffalo NY a few years back? A captain who had failed 7 proficiency checks, and an FO who was sick, but couldn't afford to call in sick? You get what you fucking pay for, and apparently all those people could afford was a big smoking hole in the ground. I haven't yet heard of a recent crash in which a mainline crew for a US airline stalled a perfectly good airplane into the ground because of nothing but incompetence. How about Comair a few years before that? They tried to depart the wrong fucking runway, and turned everyone into a fireball. How about Pinnacle 3701? Gross negligence and complete lack of professionalism there, although thankfully they took no one else with them. The American people will get what they are consistently willing to pay for. And when you pay your pilot 20k per year, you might just not live to regret it.

                "When the dust settles, when the sun sets, there is one big question with which we are left. What, after all, is the meaning and purpose of the American corporation? Is it just a bundle of financial assets? To be moved around to their highest and best use? Or is a corporation a network of mutual obligations? Mutual responsibilities? A compact between people to produce wealth in the future? Can we have it both ways? The Eastern story suggests, no."

                -Robert Reich
                Last edited by mulletman; 11-18-2012, 09:45 AM.

                Comment

                • reelizmpro
                  R3V OG
                  • Dec 2003
                  • 9444

                  #68
                  Wow, thanks for posting. I had heard about airline pilots and flight crew making far less than what people think. There was actually a story on it on the news. They were saying how they had to get other jobs which contribute to the crew flying tired. There's no wonder some of them become dependent on substances. I just saw the movie Flight which was an awesome movie but also was a wake up call. The pilot was a functional alcoholic who also did coke. Maintenance was overlooked on the screw jack which was determined to send the plane into a dive yet they still wanted to blame the pilot even though he saved lives. Companies cut corners all the time, sometimes they get caught and fined but it's nothing but a slap on the wrist to them. Maintenance on an aircraft is not a corner to cut. A lot of jobs are inherently dangerous to the workers and the public. There's a responsibility to protect both and that lies with the employer. People don't understand why we get the benefits we do with my job but what they don't realize is we work outside around dangerous equipment where people get crushed and lose limbs. We are also exposed to exhaust particulates, brake lining dust, tire wear dust from the many machine engines around us. It's dangerous and we accept that but it doesn't mean the employer doesn't have an obligation to protect us.
                  "I'd probably take the E30 M3 in this case just because I love that little car, and how tanky that inline 6 is." - thecj

                  85 323i M TECH 1 S52 - ALPINEWEISS/SCHWARZE
                  88 M3 - LACHSSILBER/SCHWARZE
                  89 M3 - ALPINEWEISS II/M TECH CLOTH-ALCANTARA
                  91 M TECHNIC CABRIO TURBO - MACAOBLAU/M TECH CLOTH-LEATHER

                  Comment

                  • Farbin Kaiber
                    Lil' Puppet
                    • Jul 2007
                    • 29502

                    #69
                    You do know that whole movie is a fabrication, except for the upside down plane part right, and it crashed and killed all aboard, right? It's called Hollywood spin...

                    Comment

                    • randomtask37
                      No R3VLimiter
                      • Oct 2003
                      • 3154

                      #70
                      Any idea what airline mechanics get paid? (i honestly done know. im curious)
                      98 M3/4/5

                      Comment

                      • tjts1
                        E30 Mastermind
                        • May 2007
                        • 1851

                        #71
                        Originally posted by randomtask37
                        They made $69 an hour? for production line workers?!?!?! that is absolute insanity. no wonder they went bankrupt. $15-$30 an hour would be fair depending on the job.


                        also, right on Mr. Sleve
                        It is insane because its BULL SHIT. Stop eating his bull shit.

                        Comment

                        • reelizmpro
                          R3V OG
                          • Dec 2003
                          • 9444

                          #72
                          Originally posted by Farbin Kaiber
                          You do know that whole movie is a fabrication, except for the upside down plane part right, and it crashed and killed all aboard, right? It's called Hollywood spin...
                          Yes I know. I saw the movie recently and was just making a point.
                          "I'd probably take the E30 M3 in this case just because I love that little car, and how tanky that inline 6 is." - thecj

                          85 323i M TECH 1 S52 - ALPINEWEISS/SCHWARZE
                          88 M3 - LACHSSILBER/SCHWARZE
                          89 M3 - ALPINEWEISS II/M TECH CLOTH-ALCANTARA
                          91 M TECHNIC CABRIO TURBO - MACAOBLAU/M TECH CLOTH-LEATHER

                          Comment

                          • rwh11385
                            lance_entities
                            • Oct 2003
                            • 18403

                            #73
                            Originally posted by randomtask37
                            Any idea what airline mechanics get paid? (i honestly done know. im curious)
                            http://www.bls.gov/oes/current/oes493011.htm
                            About $25/hr, $50K/year according to BLS

                            http://www1.salary.com/Airframe-and-...ic-salary.html


                            Originally posted by DaveSmed
                            Here's hoping the guys with vested pensions at least get a piece of the liquidation.
                            Originally posted by rwh11385
                            http://www.pionline.com/article/2012...of-liquidation

                            By going into liquidation, the pension liability goes to Pension Benefit Guaranty Corp.


                            The Pension Benefit Guaranty Corporation (PBGC) protects the retirement incomes of more than 44 million American workers in more than 27,500 private-sector defined benefit pension plans. A defined benefit plan provides a specified monthly benefit at retirement, often based on a combination of salary and years of service. PBGC was created by the Employee Retirement Income Security Act of 1974 to encourage the continuation and maintenance of private-sector defined benefit pension plans, provide timely and uninterrupted payment of pension benefits, and keep pension insurance premiums at a minimum.
                            Last edited by rwh11385; 11-18-2012, 01:46 PM.

                            Comment

                            • ///digitalme
                              R3VLimited
                              • Dec 2009
                              • 2088

                              #74
                              they are not dead yet, Bimbo will be making twinkies i believe

                              Comment

                              • e30e
                                R3VLimited
                                • Dec 2004
                                • 2176

                                #75
                                Evil union right, more like evil corporation...

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