Seattle raises minimum wage to $15/hr

[z31maniac]

You're willing to grasp for any straw aren't you? He wears the non gender pants then?

You're awfully dense aren't you?

[Dozyproductions]

awfully lawfully. my post doesn't pertain just to that single one of yours. just to you in general ;)

[z31maniac]

awfully lawfully. my post doesn't pertain just to that single one of yours. just to you in general ;)

Perhaps you should look up the definition of sexist?

[einhander]

You're willing to grasp for any straw aren't you? He wears the non gender pants then?

Dude. He was joking, I suspect.

Anyway, in Sleeve's defense, he and I got into this a while back. He recognizes that hard work is not the primary component to wealth or success and I don't think he has ever said anything to the contrary.

Everything posted in this goofball forum is the product of our own personal experiences. The only person who is ever right about everything is me.

[smooth]

Anyway, in Sleeve's defense, he and I got into this a while back. He recognizes that hard work is not the primary component to wealth or success and I don't think he has ever said anything to the contrary.

That's not the issue. It's one thing to believe that one needs a good work ethic to be successful (regardless if it's the only or one of many ingredients), it's another to believe that if one is not successful it's due to a lack of work ethic.

Regardless of what he's said to you, it's obvious he prioritizes manual labor compared to other types of labor as real or legitimate work. The way he chooses to personally attack me, among others, is to mock academia as "work" and he clearly does not think service sector jobs deserve much pay. So he very much ties the type of work he does, manual labor, with self worth and value of a person.

[mrsleeve]

^

I dont think I ever said that anywhere.

Edit: hard work and long hours can and does encompass more "civilized" employment than manual labor......... FFS

[ParsedOut]

That's not the issue. It's one thing to believe that one needs a good work ethic to be successful (regardless if it's the only or one of many ingredients), it's another to believe that if one is not successful it's due to a lack of work ethic.

Regardless of what he's said to you, it's obvious he prioritizes manual labor compared to other types of labor as real or legitimate work. The way he chooses to personally attack me, among others, is to mock academia as "work" and he clearly does not think service sector jobs deserve much pay. So he very much ties the type of work he does, manual labor, with self worth and value of a person.

Maybe he simply doesn't like you?

[z31maniac]

Dude. He was joking, I suspect.

Hey, look! Someone who doesn't have a broken sarcasm meter.

Who would have thought!

[BraveUlysses]

^

I dont think I ever said that anywhere

Working hard at something does not always entail using your back, I assume you worked hard while you getting "learned" right? Did you have to put more than 40 hours a week into your "learnin" to get your degrees???

It's almost like you aren't even aware of your own posts.

[mrsleeve]

What are you English second language or something????

Smooth is equating hard work with physical work, which is not always the case.... Hence using your "back" refers to that genre of effort. One can work hard at studying, one can work hard at programing, one can work hard at researching, one can work hard at just about anything they wish to put a lot of effort into, to accomplish a goal or task.



Buddy: I got your funny dont worry ;)

[BraveUlysses]

What are you English second language or something????

I appreciate the unintentional irony of this line

Smooth is equating hard work with physical work, which is not always the case.... Hence using your "back" refers to that genre of effort. One can work hard at studying, one can work hard at programing, one can work hard at researching, one can work hard at just about anything they wish to put a lot of effort into, to accomplish a goal or task.

Are you saying you weren't trying to be condescending in that post to smooth? because that's exactly how it comes off

[ParsedOut]

Are you saying you weren't trying to be condescending in that post to smooth? because that's exactly how it comes off

Smooth has earned a condescending response with his constant academic dick measuring. As mrsleeve has said many times in this thread, work doesn't mean physical labor however since he works in that field he used the "digging ditches" as an example. In typical smoothie fashion, he jumped in making wild assumptions.

[mrsleeve]

I appreciate the unintentional irony of this line



Are you saying you weren't trying to be condescending in that post to smooth? because that's exactly how it comes off

yeah yeah I know I dont spell good, and my punctuation leaves much to be determined..... Its not a term paper or a doctoral thesis, I get my point across. My mother has a English Minor and does not understand how I cant spell to save my own life either.

Yeah well maybe a little ;)

[smooth]

Smooth has earned a condescending response with his constant academic dick measuring. As mrsleeve has said many times in this thread, work doesn't mean physical labor however since he works in that field he used the "digging ditches" as an example. In typical smoothie fashion, he jumped in making wild assumptions.

These are not wild assumptions

Yup I am big believer in hard work

there is piles of money to be made and lots of great opportunity for advancement for average joe off the street with a little ambition, and work ethic and willingness to learn. Sadly most dont seem to have that.

The energy biz where we work 7-12+ on regular basis must be an enigma to you bankers hours and academic types.


I guess the term making hay while the sun is shining would be lost on most of you........

First of all, he's not even talking directly about me because he is classifying certain professions to include laborers that he doesn't equate to "hard workers."

But again, my issue is not that he classifies some work one way and certain professions as another; the issue is highlighted above in bold: sleeve conflates hard work and success. He believes that success is obtained via hard work, regardless of you and him trying to derail the conversation away from that point by focusing on whether he thinks I'm a hard worker personally. It's a classic personal attack and it's certainly not a response I've somehow "earned." It occurs when his arguments fall flat and he runs out of rationalizations for his stories. It's predictable and it's not only directed at me.

His perspective, which he may very well not even be aware of given the power of hegemony, is that hard work equals success and therefore if you are not successful you must not be a hard worker.

That's the underpinning of his objection to what he views as low skill service workers as undeserving of higher wages.

Unless he's arguing that service workers do deserve higher wages, but he doesn't want to give them higher wages because it will damage the economy, then he still hasn't responded to this criticism of his logic.

He'll rattle on and on about how hard work is the kind of work he values. Then he'll try and argue that it's only of the most important elements of success. But all of his arguments center around the "value" of hard work (while making derogatory personal remarks around some members' type of work).

Work that he doesn't personally value is rightfully subordinated to low wages. And rather than simply stating that he personally doesn't value that kind of work, he has constructed an argument in his mind that conflates higher wages with ethics and effort.

This kind of paradigm allows him to sleep easy at night knowingly supporting exploitative employer behavior because those low wage workers aren't "deserving" of anything better unless they take it upon themselves to leave the job completely and find something better.

You believe this, too. You've repeatedly made the assertion that if someone in a low wage job doesn't take it upon himself or herself to leave the job and go find something better then one's exploitative wages are simply one's own responsibility.

Sleeve even said in the comment that I quoted that he believes that there is plenty of opportunity out there if someone is sufficiently motivated to find it. That's where he is completely wrong. He uses his personal example of how hard work can lead to success because he personally went out and worked his way up the blue collar food chain. But he ignores the wider contextual issues that make that kind of employment opportunity in this country unlikely.

Young workers no longer have those kinds of opportunities their parents had available to them. Entire blue collar sectors of work have been eviscerated in this country. Benefits to the aged have been eviscerated, as well. Elderly are vying against jobs that our unskilled, younger workers used to use. The low skill, low wage jobs that used to be for entry position are now becoming career positions.

That's why you and he will make ridiculous statements about how no one should be working in fast food for their entire life--but those service positions are rapidly becoming the only option even for high skill workers.

Sleeve seems to think that medical doctors and lawyers work long hours and are deserving of respect. He excludes bankers and academics. In fact, the only time I have mentioned my credentials hasn't been due to what you interpret as dick measuring. Nope, far from it. I simply made a point in an earlier thread that you've been incapable of letting go for whatever reasons, and a number of people started challenging my assertions by asking where I got my information. Only after that did I speak up and say my credentials as an expert in what I was talking about.

Earlier than that, Sleeve was railing against liberal arts majors bemoaning the job market. He was referring to silly tropes like basket weavers and such. I stepped into the thread and corrected him on his misuses of the term "liberal." Liberal arts is a broad perspective education--it doesn't mean politically liberal education.

I then pointed out that my career, in criminal justice and law, is a liberal arts major and that there are plenty of opportunities to be had in the field. My field, where I train police officers and public prosecutors, is notoriously conservative in its political leanings. Similarly, business majors and CPA's are part of the liberal arts tradition--and people on Wall Street and banks are hardly examples of worthless, leftist jobs.

The whole shit storm came about because I pointed those out to him. I also explained that teachers and social workers, two crucial categories of workers coming out of liberal arts traditions, are historically underpaid. I posted data that many were working slightly under or barely above the poverty line in this country. That's when he ran out of ammo against "worthless liberal arts majors who should have known better than to get unmarketable degrees" [it's in quotes, but it's paraphrased--he's not eloquent enough to construct that sentence so don't mistake it for verbatim attribution] he started to turn it personal and argue that I was just looking down my nose at "real" hard workers; that I couldn't understand blue collar workers because I had grown up with everything handed to me on a silver platter. That's when I divulged my solidly blue collar lineage and the fact that I had personally been incarcerated before I earned my Ph.D.

The most bizarre consequence of these interactions with some of the nutjobs in this section of the forum, is that what should be a highly celebrated case story of someone who overcame adversity, went through a highly traumatic event in life, and came out to be a successful doctor gets passed off as dick measuring and unworthy of respect and admiration. You'll turn that last sentence into some sort of evidence of me tooting my own horn...but that's because you enjoy acting like a jackass.

In any other context, my personal story is exactly the kinds of things we argue that we want people to do in this country. You constantly argue that people have the obligation to benefit themselves in life. But when faced with a personal story about that exact thing occurring, you try and turn it around into some kind of personal attack on me. It doesn't hurt my feelings. I've seen worse in my life than you could possibly imagine simply as a consequence of some of the things I've had the misfortune of witnessing. It's just ignorance on your part and it makes you look petty and immature. You think it makes you look witty but your only audience for that kind of interpretation is this forum, which is pathetic at the root of it.

[ParsedOut]

Your ramblings are exhausting.

So let's go ahead and turn this around. What do you feel attributes to success other than hard work and good decisions? Specific examples please.