Standing Rock vs Dakota pipeline

[mbonder]

I'm definitely on sleeve and marshall's side here, decay I don't know how you can agree with this "civil disobedience" because:

Civil Disobedience is marching down the street without a permit to do so, or sitting at a lunch counter where you're not wanted. That's Civil Disobedience. The people being disobedient are proving a point while ensuring that it's done in a way that doesn't put other lives in danger.

Destruction of property isn't civil disobedience. Civil disobedience can turn into destruction of property when people forget what they are ultimately protesting for. Like marches that turn into violent riots. Looting and vandalism don't really prove that people should be treated in a more fair fashion, it just further solidifies the racism that was there to begin with because it strengthens, not diminishes the inherent prejudice.

Cutting into the pipeline in an attempt to cause a spill to prove that the pipeline poses a danger to the environment isn't civil disobedience, it's destruction of property. That destruction of property occurred because people forgot what they were protesting for in the first place, protection of the environment. In no way does harming the environment help protect it. Cut off your nose to spite your face isn't a defense in my book worthy of anything but sheer stupidity.

Honestly, this pipeline will ultimately be safer than many others that run over countless thousands of miles because of the heat that's being placed upon its building. I'm not in the industry, and I will never claim to know the ins and outs of laying pipeline such as this, however, there is a need for the pipeline to be built, the planning stages have been gone through, and now there is protest, I'd say that people are sour because they missed the boat. Until we can find a safe, reliable, and inexpensive energy source, oil and NG are it, that's the world we live in. No sense in sabotaging a pipeline that's already built.

[marshallnoise]

i hope you'll come up with something more interesting than tired insults like "derpy derp". that shit's basic, dude.

Its hard to read what you write and not conclude "derp" because that's the way it comes across.

And of course he will come up with something more substantial, he almost always does.

[decay]

Wow, so much derpy derp, I will outline it a bit better when I am not at work

i hope you'll come up with something more interesting than tired insults like "derpy derp". that shit's basic, dude.

[mrsleeve]

Wow, so much derpy derp, I will outline it a bit better when I am not at work

[decay]

Ok, anarchist, you realize that Native Americans already are under the thumb of the Federal Government, right? Or do you believe they are truly free?

they have a greater degree of autonomy from fedgov than you or i do.

i'm not a person who tends to think in absolutes...

I don't think you understand their lack of citizenship and all the rights associated with it.

...

i sat down and listened to what they want when i was on-site.

i think i have a better understanding of their concerns and desires than you do, based on that first-hand experience.

they would fucking hate your idea, and it smells strongly of "we're from the government, and we're here to help".

sleeve- McVeigh was *not* an anarchist; he was a white supremacist. you do understand that the two are pretty much opposites, and if you're going to call fault on liberal vs conservative, he was on the far end of *your* side, right?

nobody was harmed in this resistance action. sorry, calling bullshit on your whole argument if that's where you're starting.

[mrsleeve]

i'm saying i have a stronger position on how much of either those should exist than libertarians do, and that is why i disagree with marshallnoise's idea.

Cutting. A hole in a large bore high pressure oil transmission pipe line is not an act of civil disobedience, unless of course you think Tim McVeigh was a national hero. They are one in the same, your moment totally igored the danger that posed to everything in the area, what if the operations, had left N2 in the line under high pressure, to keep the line dry in the interim waiting for the final tie ins and loading with product (which many componies do in long waiting situations)??? That would have killed everyone invlvoed, and released highly concentrated nitrogen gas into the neighboring area and that could have killed off live stock, residents, passing motorists as their car staled out in middle of a cloud before the concentration had time to disapatell to nontoxic levels. It also would have destroyed several million dollars in equipment and cost a boat load to fix.

Not to mention this act of dangerous destruction of property, did not delay operations getting product loaded into the line.

[marshallnoise]

Ok, anarchist, you realize that Native Americans already are under the thumb of the Federal Government, right? Or do you believe they are truly free?

I don't think you understand their lack of citizenship and all the rights associated with it. They are treated as less than second class citizens. Just like the plantations hi-rises called the projects that they holed up countless African Americans. Those are their reservations.

Anarchism is antisocial; nothing more, nothing less.

[decay]

so your saying your for the total lack of government and law then???

i'm saying i have a stronger position on how much of either those should exist than libertarians do, and that is why i disagree with marshallnoise's idea.

[mrsleeve]

so your saying your for the total lack of government and law then???

[decay]

(also the two of you should probably learn the difference between "liberal" and "anarchist", they are not the same thing, and i'd like it if you stopped calling me the former)

[decay]

the enforcement or advocacy of strict obedience to authority at the expense of personal freedom.

that is *exactly* what you are suggesting by saying they should be under the purview of the federal government, by taking the land we agreed was theirs and giving it to a three-letter agency, so yes, i do understand what i'm saying, and my definition is correct.

i notice you never answered mbonder's question...

[marshallnoise]

liberals love to toss that fascism word around with no real understanding of its actual meaning

Yeah, they have zero clue. Delivering people from their chains that we imposed is the exact opposite of authoritarian.

[mrsleeve]

liberals love to toss that fascism word around with no real understanding of its actual meaning

[marshallnoise]

that's called authoritarianism. short trip from that to fascism.

au·thor·i·tar·i·an·ism
ôˌTHäriˈterēənizəm/
noun
noun: authoritarianism

1. the enforcement or advocacy of strict obedience to authority at the expense of personal freedom.
   
   
   • lack of concern for the wishes or opinions of others.
     
     
   
   
   
   
   

fas·cism
ˈfaSHˌizəm/
noun
noun: fascism; noun: Fascism; plural noun: Fascisms

1. an authoritarian and nationalistic right-wing system of government and social organization.
   
   
   
   
   • (in general use) extreme right-wing, authoritarian, or intolerant views or practice.
     
     
   
   
   
   
   

Nope, neither one of those applies. What it would be is a law that gets passed or an amendment that gets passed that does what I described above. Native American's don't have sovereignty regardless what you say or what they say.



Its cool, I don't really give a shit. Just get that fuel flowing.

[decay]

that's called authoritarianism. short trip from that to fascism.