Democratic Primary Season 2020

[Schnitzer318is]

Lowest unemployment since 1969 seems like a terrible thing for the US.

How are wages comparatively? What industries are those jobs in compared to 1969. Have to look at the whole picture. Unemployment was low when Obama left as well but I'd hardly call it a "high point" economically speaking for the majority of Americans.

As I've said before, are you better off after an administration than you were before? With Bush Jr... No, Obama 1... No, Obama 2... No, Trump... not yet. Politicians on the left and the right are all for making the wealthy, wealthier. We can quibble over the wall, or who was for it and when... but it's all just smoke. Until we have a large middle class, US companies pay US taxes, the gov't portion of the national debt is dropping, antitrust laws are enforced, and we can send our children to schools not ranked 1's or 2's on a scale of 1-10... nothing is changing. I don't care if Trump got blown in the oval office (oh wait, I think someone beat him to that) if he wants to accomplish any of those things I listed. Unfortunately... he doesn't. Or hasn't shown it so far.

[phillipj]

Lowest unemployment since 1969 seems like a terrible thing for the US.

You're right. He's a shit stain, but lets not let our distain for orange spray tans ignore the good things.

The "wall" was something every democrat, including Obama, Feinstein, Pelosi, etc, was for (and voted for), until they realized they could turn it into votes. Then they decided it was inhumane because they decided "Orange Man Bad."

??

Unemployment numbers are low despite of Trump, not because of him. There are so many reasons for a decent US economy; the instability of the Trump Administration does not help at all.

And your wall comment is so off base. Sure a lot of those Democrats voted for more money for border fencing and other measures more than a decade ago... exactly like how the current Democrats came to a compromise with Republicans a few months ago. But that $2 Billion (!!) dollars wasn't good enough for Trump, so he single handedly shuts down government in a tantrum. And all the other bullshit after that.

Also, these comments about 'so, every other president was a divider too!' is crazy.

Imagine any other President in history saying "Ok, you know what we are going to do? We're going to send these immigrants to Democrat cities to punish you" and all the similar threats. This guy is a President to all Americans? Trump is a divider like no other in history -- let's just judge him on his own bratty words, that's not media spin.

[z31maniac]

How are wages comparatively? What industries are those jobs in compared to 1969. Have to look at the whole picture. Unemployment was low when Obama left as well but I'd hardly call it a "high point" economically speaking for the majority of Americans.

As I've said before, are you better off after an administration than you were before? With Bush Jr... No, Obama 1... No, Obama 2... No, Trump... not yet. Politicians on the left and the right are all for making the wealthy, wealthier. We can quibble over the wall, or who was for it and when... but it's all just smoke. Until we have a large middle class, US companies pay US taxes, the gov't portion of the national debt is dropping, antitrust laws are enforced, and we can send our children to schools not ranked 1's or 2's on a scale of 1-10... nothing is changing. I don't care if Trump got blown in the oval office (oh wait, I think someone beat him to that) if he wants to accomplish any of those things I listed. Unfortunately... he doesn't. Or hasn't shown it so far.

If you're asking me personally? Much better. I like what my 401k is doing. And there will be another correction in the next 2-6 years. Just like there always is. With any president, or left or right controlled Senate and House. That's how the capitalist system works, ups and downs.

The Pres has nothing to do with this. We all know this, right? I'm just getting burned out on the hypocrisy from both sides.

Oh Really.

Unemployment numbers are low despite of Trump, not because of him. There are so many reasons for a decent US economy; the instability of the Trump Administration does not help at all.

And your wall comment is so off base. Sure a lot of those Democrats voted for more money for border fencing and other measures a decade ago... exactly like how the current Democrats came to a compromise with Republicans a few months ago. But that $2 Billion (!!) dollars wasn't good enough for Trump, so he single handedly shuts down government in a tantrum. And all the other bullshit after that.

Also, these comments about 'so, every other president was a divider too!' is so daft.

Imagine any other President in history saying "Ok, you know what we are going to do? We're going to send immigrants to Democrat cities to punish you" and all the similar threats. This guy is a President to all Americans? Trump is a divider like no other in history -- just judge him on his own bratty words, that's not media spin.

So your first paragraph proves that the president doesn't really matter when it comes to the economy. Thank you for coming into the 20th century. I'll wait for you to make it to the 21st century (since you're starting the condescending talk).

As for the wall, you're completely missing the point. Up until the big cheetoh came to office, it wasn't about "how much are we giving to a wall" it was that the Democrats, also thought a strong border (how ever we accomplish that) was important. You can see the videos of them all saying that. But now, they have marketed the narrative of taking care of these people vs them being here illegally.

His statement about sanctuary cities, and the lefty celebrities was to point their hypocrisy. They want sanctuary cities, and they want cheap housekeepers, but make us responsible? No we don't that.

That was exactly the hypocrisy he was pointing out. And the hypocrites on the right take advantage of the same cheap labor. Some of you aren't getting that those on the left are just as horrible as Orange Man.

If Pelosi, Bernie, et al, are so worried about wealth equality..........why aren't they giving up theirs? Housing immigrants? etc


Can we be done with the Ad Hominems now?

[Schnitzer318is]

I'm just getting burned out on the hypocrisy from both sides.

Was just clarifying. I agree hypocrisy is rampant on both sides of the aisle. Until the issues I mentioned are actually on someone's platform, it's just smoke. Oh, one issue I did not mention has made it there though. Health care. It should not be privatized. As we have seen you can not trust the monopolies,duopolies, etc that exist in health care to act as if they were in a free market. There are endless examples. Natural childbirth, 2 nights stay at hospital, and no complications for our two children were billed @ ~$50,000 I believe it was after all was said and done. WTF. Insurance covered a good amount, but it's stupid any way you slice it (we have paid way more than that in premiums and deductibles obviously over the years). A health issue for a healthy American can bankrupt the family.

Our 401k is also doing well due to the market. I would not give him the credit for that. As you stated, market goes up and down... has been going up because all the big companies are getting bigger, merging, making money (LOTS of money), etc. All of that is the opposite of what I want to see happen though. If it means my 401k rises slower... so be it. I don't need it for 30 years anyway. If it climbs slower, it's likely to fall slower too. Employer match is a 100% gain against whatever the market does anyway. So it's always net positive.

When I said I am not better off (due to policy) I meant on a more immediate 4 year scale. Counting 401k gains as being better off is almost Enron business model. Count tomorrow's sales as today's profits. The wife and I are better off, but that's not due to policy from any administration. But we are still not members of the "middle class." We pay all our bills on time, have good credit scores, are well into our mortgage... but we can't go on family vacations every year (or even every other year).

[phillipj]

... The Pres has nothing to do with this. We all know this, right? I'm just getting burned out on the hypocrisy from both sides.



So your first paragraph proves that the president doesn't really matter when it comes to the economy. Thank you for coming into the 20th century. I'll wait for you to make it to the 21st century (since you're starting the condescending talk)...

Sorry to come off condescending, sincerely; some real talk here though:

There's a strong & very honest argument to be made that Trump is hampering what could be an even stronger economy. First, markets want Stability, consistency (that's what we in business really want, by the way!) and Trump is chaos. Second, his tomfoolery on Trade is hurting, not helping. The idea that this specific person has such a strong hand in all this should be extremely alarming to all.

And whether you want to give him credit or not, if Trump was actually smart, he'd just talk about how well the economy is doing all the time, and otherwise keep quiet. Just talk that up. More jobs, great. Wages are finally going up, awesome. Just repeat that now until November 2020. The economy is very unequal, and there's too many tough spots for lots of Americans, but he'd have his best shot at re-election if he just talked up the economy 24/7.

[Wschnitz]

Honestly I don't think Trump has a major effect on the economy with his instability.

I think short term you could make big money if you knew when he was going to tweet tho, any time he tweets about the market it takes a 3-4% dip for a day.

[z31maniac]

Sorry to come off condescending, sincerely; some real talk here though:

There's a strong & very honest argument to be made that Trump is hampering what could be an even stronger economy. First, markets want Stability, consistency (that's what we in business really want, by the way!) and Trump is chaos. Second, his tomfoolery on Trade is hurting, not helping. The idea that this specific person has such a strong hand in all this should be extremely alarming to all.

And whether you want to give him credit or not, if Trump was actually smart, he'd just talk about how well the economy is doing all the time, and otherwise keep quiet. Just talk that up. More jobs, great. Wages are finally going up, awesome. Just repeat that now until November 2020. The economy is very unequal, and there's too many tough spots for lots of Americans, but he'd have his best shot at re-election if he just talked up the economy 24/7.

Fair enough, my bad.

I want demonstrable proof he is hurting America.

Sure we can find edge cases for any point of debate. Show me the objective research that shows we are worse off than we 3re two years ago.

I hate that I have to take a position to defend orange man.

[mbonder]

Truthfully, I don't think that Americans are any worse off or any better off with Trump than they were with Obama.

Here's the difference: Perception.

This comes in two forms: Personal (Inward) and Collective (Outward).

Your personal perception of Trump is can be based on things like whether you got a raise, or your 401k has done well over the last couple of years, or if Trump is focusing on an issue that you feel is important. So if you feel strongly about lower taxes and Trump delivered you lower taxes, then you feel like you're better off with Trump than Obama.

For me, on a personal level, Trumps tax plan has cost me more, not less, because he capped the property tax deduction and I like in a high tax state (NJ), so I actually paid nearly $1200 more in taxes this season than under the prior tax code. So my perception here is that Trump sucks because I need to pay more in taxes.

Additionally, Trump talks a lot about immigrants in a way that I find offensive. Using words like rapists and murderers (although there may be some that are, although I feel it's a smaller percentage than the citizens that are rapists and murderers), to describe an entire population of people is a generalization that I feel is racist, so in that sense, again, I think Trump sucks.

As far as the economy goes, you could say that the run up in stock prices since Trump took office is fantastic for anyone that has skin in the game (unfortunately, many Americans don't). However, in comparison to Obama's time in office it pales in comparison. From 2009-2016 the Dow went from 8700-19000 (rough estimates), so if you like more than doubling your money, you should have liked Obama.

As far as collective perceptions go, I think that many people don't really like Trump because he is the voice of the American people and like it or not, he represents all of the citizens of the US. He has said some fairly offensive things to many foreign countries and so I think many US citizens don't like him specifically because he has offended many people outside of the US and for many citizens, being respected around the world is important.

The reality is that these are all perceptions, in the end, the presidents as of late have had little ability to have long-term impact because of the divided government, whether you like any particular president or not usually comes down to perceptions instead of the steady reality that not much is actually changing from one administration to another.

[gwb72tii]

Sorry to come off condescending, sincerely; some real talk here though:

There's a strong & very honest argument to be made that Trump is hampering what could be an even stronger economy. First, markets want Stability, consistency (that's what we in business really want, by the way!) and Trump is chaos. Second, his tomfoolery on Trade is hurting, not helping. The idea that this specific person has such a strong hand in all this should be extremely alarming to all.

And whether you want to give him credit or not, if Trump was actually smart, he'd just talk about how well the economy is doing all the time, and otherwise keep quiet. Just talk that up. More jobs, great. Wages are finally going up, awesome. Just repeat that now until November 2020. The economy is very unequal, and there's too many tough spots for lots of Americans, but he'd have his best shot at re-election if he just talked up the economy 24/7.

This is amazing if not surprising.
For 8 years under the great O we never had 3% GDP, even with no inflation, a terrible track record. Many reasons for this, but it’s a fact.
Forward to the great T and the fact he’s not anti-business, has rolled back regulations, lowered business and personal taxes and now that the economy is above 3% it’s somehow not because of the policies of T? Get real.

[z31maniac]

This is amazing if not surprising.
For 8 years under the great O we never had 3% GDP, even with no inflation, a terrible track record. Many reasons for this, but it’s a fact.
Forward to the great T and the fact he’s not anti-business, has rolled back regulations, lowered business and personal taxes and now that the economy is above 3% it’s somehow not because of the policies of T? Get real.

Yes, the $1 Trillion per year deficits they continue to run in spite of RECORD tax collection is excusable how, exactly?

[mbonder]

This is amazing if not surprising.
For 8 years under the great O we never had 3% GDP, even with no inflation, a terrible track record. Many reasons for this, but it’s a fact.
Forward to the great T and the fact he’s not anti-business, has rolled back regulations, lowered business and personal taxes and now that the economy is above 3% it’s somehow not because of the policies of T? Get real.

I feel like everyone said the same thing when Bush II slashed taxes, right up until the economy fell off a cliff. There is a recession looming, but don't be surprised if it happens at the end of the Trump administration and everyone blames it on the (inevitable) Democrat who replaces him. History will repeat itself and it does every time a Republican comes into office and slashes taxes.

It's a shortsighted policy that never has long-term viability. Everyone goes yaaaa for a couple years until the bills come due and there's not enough money to pay them...we are headed for that cliff again.

[Schnitzer318is]

Everyone goes yaaaa for a couple years until the bills come due and there's not enough money to pay them...we are headed for that cliff again.

Not everyone goes yayyyyyy. The wealthy and the corporations go yaaaayyyy. Then when the cliff arrives the tax payers fit the bill. The corporations continue to go yaaaaaayyyy, because, too big to fail. I guess capitalism/free market can take a break for this bail out too. And with lowered taxes for the wealthy and corporations... it's going to be the middle class again footing the bill.

I agree on your point though. The Republicans love short sighted policy to increase balance sheets in the short term. Doesn't typically help the average American, but GDP doesn't show that. Trickle down economics my ass.

[Wschnitz]

Yes, the $1 Trillion per year deficits they continue to run in spite of RECORD tax collection is excusable how, exactly?

Because its all projection. They dont care about the reality, only what the followers will eat up.

[phillipj]

This is amazing if not surprising.
For 8 years under the great O we never had 3% GDP, even with no inflation, a terrible track record. Many reasons for this, but it’s a fact.
Forward to the great T and the fact he’s not anti-business, has rolled back regulations, lowered business and personal taxes and now that the economy is above 3% it’s somehow not because of the policies of T? Get real.

In 2015, under Obama (but how much does it matter?), GDP growth was 2.9%. In every year of Obama's presidency we were in positive trajectory. (Again, though, how is this an accurate "scorecard", especially of a President, with everything going on in the world, so many other aspects of Government and Party politics, and given past events?). So, tell us please, "a terrible track record" of what?

Under Trump in 2017 Real GDP growth was 2.2%; in 2018 2.9%. Where will we be after 2019? 2020?

Do you know how GDP is calculated? How things are weighted? And, do you think this is a fair measure of the economy? And for who?

...

I am planning accordingly for the fallout of the shortsightedness of what is going on right now. Are you? Let's see how positive you feel about the "Great T" come Fall 2020.

And, again, the original point made was that the economy would be even better without the instability of a Trump as well as his complete ineptitude with trade, not that the Tax overhaul or cherry-picked deregulation wasn't a jolt to markets or had somewhat of an impact on GDP or jobs. Is the tax bill solely Trump's brainchild? Actually, how much of it was his at all? How about Government spending, and the exploding deficit, which is insane? How much of that is Trump's? None? Must be those crazy socialists in Congress (who want to keep us out of our crazy expensive wars!). How much is "Space Force" going to cost us? And for Why? What a complete joke.

[phillipj]

Also, this past page or two should be in the "Trump" thread, not here.