Why aren't there more turbo M20 track cars?

[BergerNJ]

M20 was not designed to be used for racing.
-M20 rocker arm

rocker arm failure is predominantly due to neglect of a large assortments.....maybe bad oil, lengthy oil changes, improper adjustment, over rev....etc etc

not because they are weak...

Also my guess would be: most guys see the task of really getting into the tuning aspect of the turbo build and building it properly just isn't worth the time compared to other motors....then again it all depends on how you look at it...

look at how many guys use flea bay parts, chinese turbos that blow out in a week, or chip tunes for their turbo builds......

the guys who do it right are usually the garage queen type or the ones who spend a shit ton of time and money doing it correct the first time, and won't be willing to track it

[KenC]

I'd say the main reason are A) Class rules and B) Cost.

turbo cars cost more to build and run reliably. Yeah, some might get too hot, or not be tuned right, but that could be true of any motor, not just because it's turbo.

and then of course you have class rules. Other than an HPDE car, which it really doesn't make a lot of difference if you have a bone stock M42 or some crazy swap, most classes that an E30 is competetive in will require the engine be totally stock or nearly so.

that said, I did an HPDE on a 100f+ day. My N/A M20 had no problems running in the heat (oil temps got up to 260f, nothing to worry about). the turbo cars, however, were dropping like flies as the day got hotter - especially the highly modified ones. sure, they were way faster than me, but that doesn't help if you can't drive your car. :p

I think you're right on with the class rules. If you build an e30 track car, it's probably in a series with a lot of other e30s. Which will usually rule out allowance of a turbo.

[priapism]

Because stock = reliable. When you start fugging with things everything becomes three times as much of a hassle to keep running WFO for extended periods.

[Kvasi]

Mine is for sure not a track car, but its my DD and its been turboed for 2,5 years now. So id say M20s are reliable, if you treat them right.

As for rockerarms, they tend to brake at 7000 rpm. Buy forged or keep the revlimiter.

[Cronopoulos]

I am building my e30 to auto-x/track it. Will drive it everyday too... Takes money and time, more of the money part though lol.

[GillesBigCowboy]

Sounds like a pita with no one else to race with.

[TobyB]

rocker arm failure is predominantly due to neglect of a large assortments.....

the rocker's also the weak link in a head that's already not so special.

The 4- valves make it look so... weenie.

But no turbo on the track B- KUZ:
1- rules. you won't be able to race against many people
2- cost. it'll use itself up a lot faster. When you double the loads on the M20,
you use up a lot of the economy and reliablility that make it raceable at all.
The M10 is a LOT stouter bottom end, and even they start to get expensive over 1 bar.
3- thermal capacity. The M20 has a lot of it, but 15 lbs of boost doubles the need.
4- complexity. why not just a smallblock? LS1? M52/54?
5- work. the cheats you can get away with on the street (see #3) fail on the track So you have to do it right or it blows up. See #2.

There are quite a lot of people who track turbos, from the Soobie crowd to the Miatae
to the guy with the '68 Mustang with the twin coffee cans hanging down out under
his front fenders. ("WHY???" "Too much Racecar Engineering")
They all know each other pretty well. Because they're frequently in the pits replacing
things.

t

[djjerme]

If you want to know why, check out an Enduro like the 25 at Thunderhill. Then look at how many Turbo cars actually finished (very few if any!)

Anytime you add forced induction to a car, you more then likely will be moved to an unlimited class (which has been stated before), which moves you to a whole new level of racing, and cost. And I would disagree with your assumption there is a bunch of aftermarket turbo Miata's "racing." While there is thousands of Miata's on the track, many of these are built to Spec Miata class which doesn't allow power adders. It's along the same lines as saying there is a ton of Blown Civic's racing because there is so many examples on the interwebs - most of those are running either Auto-X or Time attack, and not wheel-to-wheel..

E30's have a long pedigree of racing with a "mostly" stock M20 setup, so why screw with a combination that works. Plus, are you thinking you are going to have more "fun" at the track with a turbo?

[lcoleman]

Great responses. To clarify my personal situation:

My car is already turbocharged. I do autox, mountain runs, and would like to go on to track days. It already pressurizes the cooling system on extended (and very aggressive) mountain runs. I wonder if this is setup-related (restrictive exhaust housing, etc.), charge temp related (water/meth injection as one solution), or just a limitation of the engine itself as the guy from the machine shop told me.

I don't care about being competitive in any class, or going w2w in this car, which is also usually my DD. Just HPDEs, track days, etc. Driving, for fun. And to answer someone's question, an emphatic YES, I do think a boosted e30 would be a riot on the track. Perhaps the novelty would be short-lived after I overheated and coasted back to the pits.;)

And I would disagree with your assumption there is a bunch of aftermarket turbo Miata's "racing." While there is thousands of Miata's on the track, many of these are built to Spec Miata class which doesn't allow power adders.

www.miataturbo.net

Literally tons of guys on there tracking the snot out of their cars. I have yet to see one e30 guy on the same level as the SAvington guy whose YT account I linked earlier. I realize that the Miata is closer to the perfect track car platform, but c'mon, the e30 isn't that bad, and it's not like Savington is alone...there are probably 10 regulars on that forums with BA setups doing BA lap times on a regular basis. No one else thinks embarassing C6s, 997s, Vipers, etc. in an e30 would be fun?

I guess it's a combination of factors, including the ease and availability of 24V swaps. Kinda sad, I really think those engines take away from the e30 for some reason...though my mind would probably change if I drove one.

[The Volta]

Great responses. To clarify my personal situation:

My car is already turbocharged. I do autox, mountain runs, and would like to go on to track days. It already pressurizes the cooling system on extended (and very aggressive) mountain runs. I wonder if this is setup-related (restrictive exhaust housing, etc.), charge temp related (water/meth injection as one solution), or just a limitation of the engine itself as the guy from the machine shop told me.

I don't care about being competitive in any class, or going w2w in this car, which is also usually my DD. Just HPDEs, track days, etc. Driving, for fun. And to answer someone's question, an emphatic YES, I do think a boosted e30 would be a riot on the track. Perhaps the novelty would be short-lived after I overheated and coasted back to the pits.;)


www.miataturbo.net

Literally tons of guys on there tracking the snot out of their cars. I have yet to see one e30 guy on the same level as the SAvington guy whose YT account I linked earlier. I realize that the Miata is closer to the perfect track car platform, but c'mon, the e30 isn't that bad, and it's not like Savington is alone...there are probably 10 regulars on that forums with BA setups doing BA lap times on a regular basis. No one else thinks embarassing C6s, 997s, Vipers, etc. in an e30 would be fun?

I guess it's a combination of factors, including the ease and availability of 24V swaps. Kinda sad, I really think those engines take away from the e30 for some reason...though my mind would probably change if I drove one.

What part about the 24v engine "takes away from the e30" ? Not trying to attack you, just curious.

I feel not a lot of people do turbo M20s because reliability. If you look at a lot of race cars they end up removing the VANOS systems because of reliability. On the track for budget minded people low N/A power is cheaper and simpler. I think it mainly comes down to cost and efficiency.

[lcoleman]

Period correctness, I prefer the M20's sound, becomes more difficult to work on (if only slightly), the complications and expenses are greater (vanos).

Mostly, it's just a personal preference. From an overall performance vs. cost vs. usability standpoint, it makes perfect sense.

[djjerme]

Great responses. To clarify my personal situation:

My car is already turbocharged. I do autox, mountain runs, and would like to go on to track days. It already pressurizes the cooling system on extended (and very aggressive) mountain runs. I wonder if this is setup-related (restrictive exhaust housing, etc.), charge temp related (water/meth injection as one solution), or just a limitation of the engine itself as the guy from the machine shop told me.

I don't care about being competitive in any class, or going w2w in this car, which is also usually my DD. Just HPDEs, track days, etc. Driving, for fun. And to answer someone's question, an emphatic YES, I do think a boosted e30 would be a riot on the track. Perhaps the novelty would be short-lived after I overheated and coasted back to the pits.;)


www.miataturbo.net

Literally tons of guys on there tracking the snot out of their cars. I have yet to see one e30 guy on the same level as the SAvington guy whose YT account I linked earlier. I realize that the Miata is closer to the perfect track car platform, but c'mon, the e30 isn't that bad, and it's not like Savington is alone...there are probably 10 regulars on that forums with BA setups doing BA lap times on a regular basis. No one else thinks embarassing C6s, 997s, Vipers, etc. in an e30 would be fun?

I guess it's a combination of factors, including the ease and availability of 24V swaps. Kinda sad, I really think those engines take away from the e30 for some reason...though my mind would probably change if I drove one.

You must be talking HPDE days (which is NOT racing..) because Spec Miata doesn't allow power adders, and in Auto-X, adding a S/C or Turbo moves them in to a class that they are not competitive. The whole reason the Miata and E30 are popular in RACING, is because in stock form, they are fairly competitive, or have a large enough following to have their own Spec classes (which just leads back to the original post, and point..etc.)

Yes, there may be many aftermarket Turbo'ed Miata's that are "Track Cars", but there is fewer that are real Racecars.

[priapism]

I don't know of any series that allows for turbo'd M20s to compete offhand.

[nando]

autox is realy the only one, maybe certain regional club classes. but nothing big..

[Bimmerman325i]

The vast majority of real track cars are naturally aspirated because, primarily, classing. Secondary issues are reliability, throttle response, weight, simplicity, and cooling. Every track day I've been to has the FI (factory or aftermarket) cars sitting on the sidelines after a few sessions or as the temperatures rise. They are NOT reliable or able to be beat on for hours. NA cars tend to be better in that regard.

Example: Nasa TT, engine swaps OR FI screws you into uncompetitive classes
Club racing: again, uncompetitive in mod or worse classes.

Pretty much just autocross, and even there, you are in Street Mod or higher. E30s have not been competitive there for a VERY long time on the national scene.

Drifting I'd imagine they'd be fine at, every sideways windshieldsticker hipster seems to have a turbo. Then again, drifting is the figure skating of motorsports.