S54 advice and considerations

[hoveringuy]

I swear I still want to run the motor on a 413ecu.

[nando]

you'd still need a custom tune and your vanos controller, right? The problem there is the tuning. I think matt could help, but it's still going to be fairly proprietary. that's part of why it's still expensive.

other issues - the S54 has 3 knock sensors and the M50 only has 2. It would be nice to use all 3. It would also be good to use alpha-N, or MAP, or a combination of the two rather than a restrictive (or expensive) MAF.

and having vanos intergrated into the ECU is a good thing, it's nice to be able to adjust injector timing based on the cam angle. I don't think you can do that with a stand-alone vanos controller.

[giantkeeper]

Is there a specific reason why these tuners are not shutting off the EWS and the "other" trouble causing inputs in the stock DME?

Lack of knowledge?

[nando]

they do, but there are only a handful (one? two?) of people who can actually modify the stock ECU, and they charge a lot of money (don't blame them, they've got the whole market to themselves).

[giantkeeper]

they do, but there are only a handful (one? two?) of people who can actually modify the stock ECU, and they charge a lot of money (don't blame them, they've got the whole market to themselves).

Makes perfect sense to me ;)

[hoveringuy]

you'd still need a custom tune and your vanos controller, right? The problem there is the tuning. I think matt could help, but it's still going to be fairly proprietary. that's part of why it's still expensive.

other issues - the S54 has 3 knock sensors and the M50 only has 2. It would be nice to use all 3. It would also be good to use alpha-N, or MAP, or a combination of the two rather than a restrictive (or expensive) MAF.

and having vanos intergrated into the ECU is a good thing, it's nice to be able to adjust injector timing based on the cam angle. I don't think you can do that with a stand-alone vanos controller.

I'm not so naive that I think the 413 would be as good as the other ECU's that are available, but given my experience with the M54 I still think it would work fairly well.

Tuning is defintately a bitch, but I have a better idea of how to do that now, too.

If you base injector timing on cam angle, cam angle is based on load/rpm, so everything ends up being based on load/rpm...

It would make a great science project and if it fails I can go with an established standalone, but if it works it would be cool to have a $100 ECU solution for the S54.

[nando]

I guess, in an indirect way. It's still better to have it adjust automatically - tuning injector timing angle isn't exactly easy. especially if you're spending a lot of time on VANOS tuning, you'll have to go back and make changes to the injector angle every time. So, it's possible, just a lot more difficult.

[dakon]

I have ideas that would bring the cost down considerably, but it won't be for everyone... I'm thinking around $1500 for the whole thing. still expensive I guess, but not really.

Personally, if i could get a solution that would be a good solution and possibly keep most of the oem functionality for 1,500$, i would not think twice. I think 1,500$ is a very fair price.. When i was looking at the S52 option white325is said he would alter a harness for me for around 100 bucks... That was a no brainer as well, he's done many many harnesses...


I think a minority of people may try to give you a hard time, but F them... I would assume many others would try to help where they can and be grateful for your time an energy.

[Wanganstyle]

When i was looking at the S52 option white325is said he would alter a harness for me for around 100 bucks... That was a no brainer as well, he's done many many harnesses...

$100 for moving 6 wires to a different connector...... sounds fair.

if you have seen my S54 wiring photo from the BFC thread, you can see that the BOTH s52 AND s54 harness had to be unwraveled and re-configured to a custom standalone spec.

an s52 DME has 24 wires going into it. The body plugs all together have 25 wires, and there are around a dozen sensors needed with 2-3 wires per.

24+25+12X2 would be = 73 wires

ADD 1x S54 worth of wiring (assume it is same as S52 although it is NOT and has MORE wires)

73 (s52 harness) +73 (s54 harness) + a few....== more than 140 wires to touch and manage.

then you have minimal ..... 140 wires to handle, ID and decide WTF to do with. This takes a LOT of time and if work was rated par via wires to 6 wires @ $100....... the harness merger cost would be $2300-2350 USD??

After both S52 and S54 harness are complete un-raveled and ID'ed you have to pin the correct items into the MOTEC standalone connector- this is not the most fun but not terrible, then you have to build a relay system minic-ing OEM to trigger the coilpacks, injectors, and integrate some secret fuel pump and other item disable switches that work great for doing injector/coil pack testing etc :)

Obviously IF doing custom wiring can do custom anti-theft:)

I do not enjoy the thought of another individual being able to drive my S54 powered swap :) Don't ever let a friend drive a similar creation, you may loose a friend.

*******************
The above link I posted for 2JZ-GTE swap wiring will show every single wire needed to wire the 2jz with full toyota OBD function; I had my car inspected at Toyota San Francisco post entire 2jz-gte BPU swap as they had supplied all OEM items for the engine build.

S54 is a DIS 24v dohc item with even more wires than the 2jz-gte (dual vanos, German car vs Japanese car lol;
--------one can figure out themselves the work required :)

S54 custom harness for standalone = many more hours than 6 wires, much more labor expense. Anyone willing to do this work for cheap may simply be naive and you may NOT want to hire them...... :)

If you wanted a 2jz-gte in your E36 or e30 plug and play I could do it custom turn key, DR. Tweak could also. It is only a matter of understanding the systems and willingness to adapt and cross check ridiculously. Tedius process that you may not want to trust to just anyone..... DTA S100 is close to $2k to replace if you melt it yourself somehow....


IF some one (with electronics ability like steve) decides to hack the 413 and make a daughter board to run the S54, I don;t see why it cannot be done. the daughter board could be designed to plug and play into to any M50vanos harness and output to S54 Dual vanos, it would be similar to my inital target (failed) of trying to run the S54 on S52 OEM DME.

the wiring harness will plug and play to s54 almost (as my thread shows) but the settings/mapping is not close enough to fire.

I have a proven tested PNP S54 harness on my shelf and my own Alpha-N high speed high load (170mph OVER on 91 octane) mapping files for the S54 being assembled, When the time comes it will be 100% plug and play just like installing any other BMW I-6

Do you feel like committing to some kind of price range, if you were to be provided a wire harness such that it would be pnp?

Personally, i did not want to buy a S54 without having a wiring solution. I am not at the point where i can decode the wiring myself. If i had a detailed schematic i could do it, however right now, there aren't anything openly available.


I would love to do an S54 swap, as i would MUCH rather do an S54 swap than a S52 swap.

P.S. I don't want to come across as though I'm backing you into a corner, if you do not know what you would charge, i can understand i am just looking for other options other than Bimmerworlds 3k$ option.

Bimmer world 3K option is fair:

they are charging ~ $1500 for: harness and e-throttle adapter kit
$1500 (the rest) for hacked ecu (OEM). so the lump profit is from this item.

Cheap M50/s50/52 swap options are only because the DME IS OEM = $cheap.

Standalone EMS will always be $,$$$ affair. Why? because standalone.



why can BMWrld get away with this? easy - they paid the hacker enough to keep quiet and lock the supply of hacking down :)



ABL sells a custom hand built harness ($1500) for Standalone use, the Standalone costs ~ $2k. so you are paying same for the custom harness but more for a better product (2k for real standalone brand new with warrenty, vs a hacked stock s54 ecu for $1500).

you will probably not find anyone who can deliver a 100% plug and play harness for S54 to a standalone who can actually back up the work and will not want premium dollar for it- its a white collar affair you are requesting, the level of expertise required is very specific.

I doubt the people doing "e30 - 24v swap adapters" will be able to deliver anything close to a S54 PNP full harness for standalone-

on top of that be able to handle the mapping required for alpha-N to not melt your $5,000++ S54 playtoy.

This is not some junkyard M50 that can be had on craigslist and easily replaced, its a WBS full CNC head S54 @ 11.5:1 compression - not for the average hack to be tuning on a homebuilt megasquirt the first time around..... it will HURT $,$$$ to replace/repair an S54 when it goes.

the S54 core assembly can be gotten for as low as 3k in ugly shape yes.....but it will cost quite a decent chunk of change to setup to full turn key. Not something the wiring "adapter" crowd would be playing with - there should be no "ADAPTERS" when talking S54 wiring. HARD WIRE everything, or re-pin. No surplus noise in the system.

I've seen these wiring hell's go down for the last decade in the subaru / toyota /and now BMW world- its not for most, the premiums reflect it.
I have been requested to handle basket case subarus/others over total wiring hell over the years, on occasion I have handled them - usually I run away -Its not worth the risk to trip sombody else's potential electrical fire

[nando]

Personally, if i could get a solution that would be a good solution and possibly keep most of the oem functionality for 1,500$, i would not think twice. I think 1,500$ is a very fair price.. When i was looking at the S52 option white325is said he would alter a harness for me for around 100 bucks... That was a no brainer as well, he's done many many harnesses...


I think a minority of people may try to give you a hard time, but F them... I would assume many others would try to help where they can and be grateful for your time an energy.

for just the C101 connector, sure. That's fairly basic stuff, not really that tough. the Z3M ETK is available and has all the info you'd need
for that part.

if I could come across a free/cheap (yeah, right) MSS54 ECU, I could get a head start. The idea is to not need to modify the stock harness (other than adding the C101). It would be nice to remove the uneccesary crap (air pump, DBW, secondary O2s, etc) but that's not required, really.

There's nothing wrong with BMW stock wiring - it's generally well thought out and extremely well documented. Much of the basic layout hasn't really changed since the '80s, other than adding more stuff. Unless you're a race team with lots of money, spending $2000 on a custom harness seems like a waste to me..

[Dean]

Thanks guys, i've briefly scanned the replies ALOT of info...just for an idea, here is a ca that was sold last month in the UK...granted its an E36 M3 but this is essentially what I am hoping to create...It is possible the wiring harness to get the engine running at its optimal performance and the throttle being drive by and the the E30 being a cable are going to give the most greif! Um, getting the S54 is the easy part...its the rest that is the issue it would appear!!!

http://www.pistonheads.com/sales/3021474.htm

Thanks for replies so far guys :) I'm really giving it a thought and going to give it a try!

the ECU...there are so many options here and I've looked at so many companies that specilise in this field that makes the choice even harder, I am able to travel anywhere within northern Europe to get the work done with the ECU.

[nando]

(lots of stuff)

Assuming a stock engine (or close), there's no need to retune everything. It would *have* to come with a complete tune, or the whole thing doesn't work. Having users self tune, is probably not a good idea, unless they know what they're doing. And most do not.

I'd also assume, most people aren't going to be opening up these motors to modify them.. unless they can afford the $10k EMS to go with it. There's really no point, you'll spend exponential dollars for a small relative gain. The only thing the internals really need are different rod bearings. It's a can of worms in there that I wouldn't even want to touch. $4k on cams? upgraded valves? questionable porting? fuck. remove the intake restrictions, ditch the US-headers, and tune the VANOS curves. Lots of potential there for a relatively smaller cost.

the S54 core assembly can be gotten for as low as 3k in ugly shape yes.....but it will cost quite a decent chunk of change to setup to full turn key. Not something the wiring "adapter" crowd would be playing with - there should be no "ADAPTERS" when talking S54 wiring. HARD WIRE everything, or re-pin. No surplus noise in the system.

I've seen these wiring hell's go down for the last decade in the subaru / toyota /and now BMW world- its not for most, the premiums reflect it.
I have been requested to handle basket case subarus/others over total wiring hell over the years, on occasion I have handled them - usually I run away -Its not worth the risk to trip sombody else's potential electrical fire

then don't modify the harness. leave it stock. There's no requirement to add noise, if it's done right. nothing critical really travels through the C101 (just to get the engine started basically), but a hard-pinned connection is definitely better than an adapter.

[Wanganstyle]

if you want the EASIEST; I've outlined it already for you- you are in UK and this is easily done for you- compared to all us stateside-

Get entire S50b32 euro wiring +sensors and have it adapted for your e30 (6 wires)
install S54 as a S50b32 into your car with s50b32 everything

get s54 remapped at your local dyno shop that does s50b32 mapping - its just a super duper S50b320 :)

[Wanganstyle]

Assuming a stock engine (or close), there's no need to retune everything. It would *have* to come with a complete tune, or the whole thing doesn't work. Having users self tune, is probably not a good idea, unless they know what they're doing. And most do not.

I'd also assume, most people aren't going to be opening up these motors to modify them.. unless they can afford the $10k EMS to go with it. There's really no point, you'll spend exponential dollars for a small relative gain. The only thing the internals really need are different rod bearings. It's a can of worms in there that I wouldn't even want to touch. $4k on cams? upgraded valves? questionable porting? fuck. remove the intake restrictions, ditch the US-headers, and tune the VANOS curves. Lots of potential there for a relatively smaller cost.


then don't modify the harness. leave it stock. There's no requirement to add noise, if it's done right. nothing critical really travels through the C101 (just to get the engine started basically), but a hard-pinned connection is definitely better than an adapter.

for standalone ECU, full harness modification is un-avoidable; This is not for average users or lower price points. High end consumer use and really track/race car only stuff.

I am saying for 413 DME or S52 DME+S54 engine it would be quite off; Ideally one of those would be used so installer could use a close to original S52/m50 engine wiring harness = avoid custom harness work

S54 engine can fit a S52 engine harness pretty much PNP, so if the S52/m50 brain can run S54 it solves ALL problems instead of only half - Mss54 ecu is obscure, ews only, expensive and only plug and play into a e46m chassis with its own E46m engine/chassis harness - no need to even go there if a common 413 or S52 ecu can run the S52:).

reference Nissan KA24DE + turbo; the ECU has been hacked enough that you can just bolt on turbo and re-flash to full turbo mapping, spec whatever timing/injectors/map +afm you wish.

S52 ecu has RPM limit at 8,000 but realistically how many need more than 8,000? I'll pay the premium of standalone DME to take it to 8,500 or 8,888 (super lucky potentially explosive redline), but not many others will.

[nando]

for standalone ECU, full harness modification is un-avoidable; This is not for average users or lower price points. High end consumer use and really track/race car only stuff.

I disagree. It just takes knowledge of the electronics and how to set things up. It's possible to do it without modifying even one wire. The standalone guys have a vested interest in selling you their expensive harness - like I said, the more proprietary they make it, the better for them!

using a 413 ecu would be cheap/simple. It's the lack of stepless dual vanos that would bug me most. But even tuning a 413 isn't so advanced that most people could have access to it. It's still a big-boys only thing. That won't bring down the price much, IMO.