S54 advice and considerations

[samiam3356]

Yes ALL of you should move to Atlanta! lol

[matt]

Matt....

First off, nothing but the highest respect for what you and your company do. Stuff of legends and rightfully so.

But, to be fair, and I believe you'd agree, while its fair to say that the factory bmw computer is capable of far more refinement and stability and even perhaps some safety (not going to lie) than affordable standalones, there are many, many limitations to going that route for people that are enthusiasts who like to tinker.

For you personally, or for financially secure people in your back-yard geographically, there may be unlimited ability and access to re-tune the factory dme whenever you want to in order to take advantage of new cams, intake, headers, exhaust etc..... but for the rest of us that can not personally hack a bmw dme and adjust maps, take away EWS or emissions or needed interactions with ASC/ABS systems etc.... its very limiting.

For people who like to tinker, or have a map for a restrictor in one class of racing, unrestricted in another, one for race gas, one for street gas, perhaps one for different pulleys on a SC system or to re-tune themselves to take advantage of new changes like cams, intake, filters, headers etc... the independence of a standalone is a huge benefit.

No one should expect to EASILY get a standalone with a handful of maps to match the smoothness of the MSS54 with many, many maps, HFM, and the restrictions imposed by having to keep cats alive, emissions in place, and such......but you can get darn close and have a enormous advantage with new features as mentioned earlier.

If you don't like to tinker, upgrade, fine tune, have different maps available, go with a reflashed factory computer, but be aware, it may not be simple or easy to upgrade and affordably re-tune locally.

Imagine a situation where a custom re-tune or re-flash is $500 each time you wanted one. Very quickly you could pay for a standalone.

I know I personally can never satisfy the itch for upgrades to go faster... I lie awake wondering how to justify a set of SS headers for the race car...I'm itching to put them on and retune the DTA for those. I'm dying to build an engine with cams, retune for those. I'm insanely curious how much more power I can tune for with ram effect using the CSL clone intake...Ram effect with an HFM? good luck on that! We have dyno proof of real gains by ditching 3.5 inch intake systems and opening it up, and we did the tuning locally and with simple rental of a dyno, just with a lap-top.

But, its not for everyone... truth is, I get a couple hiccups when its the dead of winter and below freezing. Takes some time to play with tables and get cold start routines perfected etc...Factory DME will come out of the box, ready to handle that stuff. But at the same time its intoxicating to be the one in control of the engine....

Alex.

Oh, I absolutely agree. Standalones make a lot of sense for a lot of people.

And certainly computing power is not high on the list of what people are looking for in an ECU (especially given the info available out there in public) but it's an interesting yardstick to me.

Matt

[Wanganstyle]

Yes ALL of you should move to Atlanta! lol

would be quite a bash on weekends......any one want to send a donation to the local PD to lax the hwy patrol before I show up lol

[Dean]

Ok been doing ALOT of research on the subject, and here is my findings...this information is based on GBP rather than USD (united states dollars)...and this is how much the project will cost me...all I need is a 3 litre euro M3 prop and the 3.2 Evo (the 321bhp euro model) rear axle and I'll be able to do the project. anyway if anyone reads PBMW magazine, its the same company who built the first UK S54 E36 I've been talking to from april 2008 issue!

Here is a cost of parts...in UK

Engine+loom and Ancillaries £2500
Loom Adaptor £250
Exhaust £800
ECU £1200
Wideband Lambdas £200
Swap labour £1200 - (thats not timed as it'll take 1-2 months to get all parts made up, sourced and job completed.)
Sundries £1000 (hoses, clamps, expansion tank and varios etc)
Oils £150
Mapping £600

A custom loom is avaiable for 1200 but that wouldn't be running the above costs and may cost less but won't have the engine running to its full.

This is what the tuner I may potentially use has said about the ECU electronics...

''We do not use the standard ECU as it is looking for too many other systems to ever work correctly. We use a MBE ECU which will happily run the vanos and the fly-by-wire, as I type this we are developing launch and traction control for it. It also allows full throttle gear change etc, but the wiring etc will be at extra cost.''



I've never broke down the cost but thats what it'll cost me, and what a 25th birthday present to myself if I can get it done by april next year. The tuner has assured me that me that on their rolling road the average S54 makes around 310bhp. BUT with this set up they can achieve 350bhp (the last e36 swap with this very set up got 348bhp!!!)...meaning that the BMW will hit the other side of 185 mph!!!

I've also been speaking elsewhere about looms and bits that can be done to get the project moving. I'm really thinking about giving it a go...but unsure whether 350bhp in the E30 will be wise and considering running it in my E36 as its OBD2 and makes the swap easier and also I'd feel better at 185mph in the E36 than E30!

Don't know which car to choose, but I'm saving up for the swap. It may take until the summer 2012 but I'm sure I can do it


@Wanganstyle got your PM's writing a reply in next few days, also seen your wiring harness for sale on the bay too.

[Wanganstyle]

175mph ++ is lovely in the E36 ALL MOTOR :)

S54 howls at those speeds just like the S38 does........comes into a magical floating feeling zone of its own that only a NA built pure racing engine can deliver :D

Very haunting similar feeling to a S38 at full wind out...

I don't know how gutsy you are but e30 to 170mph over...hmmm. I will investigate e30+ Wangan speeds (140mph over) once mine is appropriately equipped :P

I've topped 175mph in a e28M but that was a little longer wheelbase/ wider track / less direct front suspension (can take big compression hits well)

[e30polak]

dyno mapping won't nearly be useful at 170mph over as road mapping, there are not that many roads stateside where you can do a fully loaded uphill climb through esses at 150-170mph speeds. Even some reputable local dyno tuners are afraid of serious wangan speeds/stress and tuning (i.e. 150++ mph over, they often keep top speed limiters)

175mph ++ is lovely in the E36 ALL MOTOR :)

I don't know how gutsy you are but e30 to 170mph over...hmmm. I will investigate e30+ Wangan speeds (140mph over) once mine is appropriately equipped :P

I've topped 175mph in a e28M but that was a little longer wheelbase/ wider track / less direct front suspension (can take big compression hits well)

:stupid:

You are retarded for taking an e36 and an e28 at those speeds, let alone wanting to try in an e30! Just because the car has the power to do so, doesn't mean it was engineered to do so. Won't be so funny if something fails at those speeds because the factory didn't design it to handle the stress of those speeds. :down:

I don't care how set-up you car is, it's not a good idea. It wont be so funny if you lose control and kill yourself or other innocent people now will it? :roll:

Also road tuning at 150+? Npo matter how late at night/early in the morning, you're never truly alone on public roads! :loco:

[phreshkid]

189 in a modded e39 m5 was enough for me. But then again, the s62 is a bit of a jump from your average s38/s54. I wouldn't do it in an e30. The e30 is fun around a corner, a mountain, and a cone. And plus, torque is the best feeling ever. I choose torque/low end over hp/top end power.

[Wanganstyle]

to each his own-

I feel the Factory designed the E36 and E28 with 160-170mph speed ranges in mind. its easily within range of STOCK s38b35, and I'm sure a stock S50b32 can do it also.

The expressway system here was designed with high speeds in mind, there are quite a few sections where a pedestrian e39 or even e34/e32 can turn in to high speed esses and stay perfectly planted in its own lane at 140-150mph speed zone. Socal "freeways" are a different story. You would fly off the road at these speeds on some sections of I-405 etc...

e36M/28M feel pretty stable in 160-170's

189 in a modded e39 m5 was enough for me. But then again, the s62 is a bit of a jump from your average s38/s54. I wouldn't do it in an e30. The e30 is fun around a corner, a mountain, and a cone. And plus, torque is the best feeling ever. I choose torque/low end over hp/top end power.

sounds like fun :)

uncorked s62 sound is Great!!

[Jean]

I'd say whatever you'll be comfortable with. there's a ton of options - if you give up VANOS control, just about anything could run it. But who'd want to do that? :p

I'd be interested to know if anyone who's bashed MS3 has used one personally, or if it's just internet hearsay. I'm guessing the latter.

Since this is commonly done on pure race cars, does the engine lose a lot of torque w/o vanos? I mean enough that it's worth the trouble in terms of tuning?

It can't be THAT much, can it? On the m62tu with vanos disconnected it's noticable at in stop and go, but once you are going no difference and this is a 4.4l v8...so how big of a difference is there on s54 or the euro b32?

[Wanganstyle]

the vanos is making more tq happen until near 6k rpm where it goes to high cam mode for induction max power max lift

Local fully prepped track e36m with S54 VAC motor (and vanos deleted) wishes it had vanos. Obviously this is not Needed, the car pulls enough g's to shat 1x wet sump vac motor, but vanos is nice.

the S54 has really nasty cams, so the vanos is negating that when working. Kinda like mimic-ing the economy lobes on a b16a Vtec

[Dean]

:stupid:

You are retarded for taking an e36 and an e28 at those speeds, let alone wanting to try in an e30! Just because the car has the power to do so, doesn't mean it was engineered to do so. Won't be so funny if something fails at those speeds because the factory didn't design it to handle the stress of those speeds. :down:

I don't care how set-up you car is, it's not a good idea. It wont be so funny if you lose control and kill yourself or other innocent people now will it? :roll:

Also road tuning at 150+? Npo matter how late at night/early in the morning, you're never truly alone on public roads! :loco:

Ok I agree with this statement, BUT I also want to add my point to it...

I live in the UK where we have of the best roads in the world, you've all played Colin McRae rally on the playstation and driven the UK lol. Some of the roads are amazing BUT we have a 70mph MAX limit on open freeway, 60mph on normal roads, most cars exceed this figure with ease and safely these days. The Mini Cooper (new shape 2007 model) I use from time to time, will sit happily at 100+ mph and feel as stable and as quiet as if it were doing 70mph. Ok, back to my view.

Road running at above 100mph is dangerous YES, but my E36 has been set up to drive at higher speeds with ease and on a motorway/Autobahn/expressway I corner at 150mph with no problems and the tires don't scream, its about being fluid with the wheel and just looking ahead at problems.

Ok, I travel to Germany ALOT and the Autobahn in most sections has no speed limit, drive as fast as you feel able. Here is my E36 328iSE in Germany! I spend most of my time at the Nürburgring! Thats what my car is set up for...tight fast and twisty sections of racetrack. It has better than OEM, suspension, wheels, stiffer tires with amazing grip, uprated brakes and chassis is stiffer and so on.

I sit at 140mph everywhere, even VMax it a few times too and its not even in redline...155mph indicated and 151mph on GPRS



I deem this as safe I'm in full control and other drivers around me are aware of the speeds allowed to be travelled and as a result everything is so much more civilized than going fast and slowing down because the cops may have a speed trap ahead. I do however not agree with a rusted banger hitting VMax fully loaded with 4 mates in the back showing off that ''Oh I can drive fast''.

:hitler: Sorry as I was talking about Germany Hitler seemed approriate lol

Anyway back to my S54 project considerations, I wouldn't consider thinking about installing an S54 into a car that wasn't able to cope and be safe with that type of power IF I wasn't sure of the engineering behind it all. I got into thinking that I wouldn't feel safe doing over 140mph in my E30, but I feel comfortable doing 150+mph (when its legal) in the E36. Then again the E30 DTM cars of the early 90's were topping out close to 190mph on the Nurburburgring races on those days...so it has been done before.


P.S this E30 a mate in Germany is faster than my car, he travels at over 150+mph in it...a S14 race engine pushing out 245bhp!!! My E36 is on right.





That engine was a consideration before the S54 came to mind!!! It seems a bit off topic but I think its fair that everyone has their say on this type of project. I wouldn't do it, IF I wasn't going to use it.

so how big of a difference is there on s54 or the euro b32?

The Euro B32 is an easy enough swap but I've seen so many that I want something unique, you can buy a complete E36 M3 (thats Everything on the car) for 2000 BGP at the moment as insurance is so high and petrol prices are high. The Euro B32 is 316bhp (321PS not many people know that) standard! But the S54 is an animal is a E30/E36 and as I say can be mapped to 350bhp with ease! 1300kg and 350bhp! Goodbye lambourgini's and Subarus! The S54 is in truth an exciting prospect. In fact I have driven a few E36 Euro 3.2's and with the 6 speed tranny they don't feel any quicker than my 328iSE, thats why I never bought one in first place. S54 will be the new S50 soon anyway as the E36 M3 engines will all dry up and become hard to get a hold of one day anyway.

[nando]

Since this is commonly done on pure race cars, does the engine lose a lot of torque w/o vanos? I mean enough that it's worth the trouble in terms of tuning?

It can't be THAT much, can it? On the m62tu with vanos disconnected it's noticable at in stop and go, but once you are going no difference and this is a 4.4l v8...so how big of a difference is there on s54 or the euro b32?

of course it does, but a race car doesn't need torque like a street car (in the low end). It just needs a lot of power, you'll spend all your time in the powerband anyway. the nice thing about double VANOS is you can adjust the cam timing for a nice, smooth idle, and lots of smooth low end torque, and then readjust for peak RPM power. That's why an M20 has a "hump" for a torque curve and an S54 is basically flat.

S54 cams are indeed gnarly.


makes my schrick look wimpy, and stock S52 cams look absolutely silly. I can't imagine wasting $4000 on a cam upgrade..

[hoveringuy]

the vanos is making more tq happen until near 6k rpm where it goes to high cam mode for induction max power max lift

Local fully prepped track e36m with S54 VAC motor (and vanos deleted) wishes it had vanos. Obviously this is not Needed, the car pulls enough g's to shat 1x wet sump vac motor, but vanos is nice.

the S54 has really nasty cams, so the vanos is negating that when working. Kinda like mimic-ing the economy lobes on a b16a Vtec

I think you're confusing Vtec with VANOS.

The whole point of VANOS is that it maximises cylinder filling at all speeds and loads.

At lower rpms the intake cam is advanced which increases dynamic compression (valve closes earlier in the upstroke) but doesn't take advantage of ram air effect.

At higher rpms the retarded setting takes advantage of ram effect.

exhaust isn't as effective as intake.

Deleting VANOS will lose power at high or low rpms, take your pick.

[nando]

while exhaust isn't as effective, that's not to say you can't use it for more power. BMW probably didn't for emissions reasons. But basically you can adjust it for the LSA - tighter at high RPM, wider at low RPM. the exhaust timing could also be tuned to your headers/exhaust (maximizing scavenging efficiency, without having intake air sucked out of the head) - a bit of a dark science, I suppose.

[Jean]

So, are you guys saying removing vanos WILL result in less power uptop too? I thought it was low-end only?