N52 Swap Discussion

[nando]

you can do the bimmerlabs 3-stage flash, it's free. It won't have error codes etc. deleted but it should work otherwise - same 255hp as the 330i.

yeah, EWS on MSV80 has been broken for a while. It's actually far simpler than doing it on MSV70. But I still recommend MSV70, especially if you're tuning, as it's a little easier to work with and just as capable.

also, FYI - you don't need a CAN board to use the E46 (or similar generation) cluster either. You can just set the DME to use CAN11h and it will work natively. They even have the maps to run the variable redline on the E46 M3 cluster!

[2.5-12]

Huh, neat! I get the appeal since it helps with wiring, but it seems a little complicated because you don't really need any of those modules (except the EKP). The DME will work fine without them. You don't really need a CAN bus emulator either - I'm assuming you're going to get it tuned so CAN errors can just be deleted. I think it's funny they don't think you can turn off EWS too. :)

frankly, until I read this thread, I was under the impression that the msv80 had not been cracked for EWS delete yet. had I known, I would have strongly considered going that route, since it makes the swaps so much cleaner.

Other than possible 3 stage if it fits, I don't plan to tune it. even the E90 was a rocket ship with this engine, so guessing the 2800-lb wagon will be fun on a bun!

[nando]

Huh, neat! I get the appeal since it helps with wiring, but it seems a little complicated because you don't really need any of those modules (except the EKP). The DME will work fine without them. You don't really need a CAN bus emulator either - I'm assuming you're going to get it tuned so CAN errors can just be deleted. I think it's funny they don't think you can turn off EWS too. :)

[2.5-12]

Are you planning to transfer the entire E90 harness? You're going to need the key slot and start button and probably more than just the DME/CAS to make it work that way. Or just ditch all that and run the DME standalone with EWS turned off..

no, just the CAS/holder and DME with the EKP looks like. I did cut every module with a foot plus of wire out of the chassis before getting rid of it though.

This is what I picked up to integrate it:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/143901394744

I've done tons of S54 and M54 swaps, but wasn't ready to take the time to build my own MSV80 harness and the price seemed really reasonable given the new connectors. we'll see.

biggest (well, only) worry is the pan. Hoping with a combination of modifying the subframe and moving the pickup tube back one main, It'll fit. Still not sure if Z4 arms are the play, or if I should just cardboard cad some mounts. I have a FARO laser scanner and a CNC mill at work, but the folks that run the mill are super busy so trying to not lean on them unless I absolutely need it.

[nando]

This thread has been a fun read!

I will be undertaking at some point after the S52T comes out of my RHD touring, a full transplant of an N52B30K / 6 speed from my roommates untimely arsoned 2011 328i. I have a CAN emulator and harness on its way to retain the CAS and make the engine (hopefully) run, but is there anything else I should specifically save from the complete donor chassis?

Pan sounds like by far the toughest solution. I have a steel pan, plan to have that pickup tube spacer milled at work to push it back one main cap and cut a portion of the steel pan out in conjunction with modiftying the subframe and moving the rack/sway bar forward.

Those who have done this with the aluminum rear sump pans, about how many inches did you have to take out in conjunction with the subframe modding?

Are Z4 mount arms the way to go, or is it worth paying that one company that makes 'N54 E30' fabricated arms?

TIA. I think this will be a GREAT power and livability pairing for an E30.

Are you planning to transfer the entire E90 harness? You're going to need the key slot and start button and probably more than just the DME/CAS to make it work that way. Or just ditch all that and run the DME standalone with EWS turned off..

[2.5-12]

If you can use the stock ECU then you'll want the EKP module and the OBD plug, as well as a radiator fan PWM module if it has one.



When I did the modified subframe and pan on my M54 I lost the front 2 inches of the pan.

Ah, unfortunately the car was lit on fire in the rear right corner, so the EKP is gone. I suppose I'll have to buy one.

Interesting. I've never seen an M54 swap with the rear sump pan before. if it's not a huge ask, would love to see your solution.

Thanks!

[hoveringuy]

is there anything else I should specifically save from the complete donor chassis?

If you can use the stock ECU then you'll want the EKP module and the OBD plug, as well as a radiator fan PWM module if it has one.

Pan sounds like by far the toughest solution. I have a steel pan, plan to have that pickup tube spacer milled at work to push it back one main cap and cut a portion of the steel pan out in conjunction with modiftying the subframe and moving the rack/sway bar forward.

Those who have done this with the aluminum rear sump pans, about how many inches did you have to take out in conjunction with the subframe modding?
.

When I did the modified subframe and pan on my M54 I lost the front 2 inches of the pan.

[wazzu70]

There's no difference at all on MSV70 and later cars. All of the code and program is there regardless if you have manual, auto, SMG/DCT. The M cars were a very different animal, MSS54 and MSS60/65 are extremely different from the "normal" cars. Now they're all basically the same thing.. heck, the Z4 runs MSS70 which is 99% identical to MSV70. It even has valvetronic maps although they're used differently, lol

Actually, for that matter, MSD80/81 and later are all rooted in MSV70, and the programming is nearly identical, it just has more maps for turbo and is compiled for Tri-Core CPUs instead of the MPC563. The early dumps of MSD80 are actually named as "MSD70".

This is not too surprising. There is a huge amount of time/expense in validating a completely new software platform. If you can have one platform that covers multiple models then you just need to enable/disable functionality, but its no bother just hanging out there. If you build on an old platform you only need to validate the new function, and have a lesser regression test to make sure you didn’t FUBAR something that used to work just fine.

You may even find code that is not utilized until later platforms because it was being used in development at the time. Its hard to validate functionality on a large scale using only RCP code.

[2.5-12]

This thread has been a fun read!

I will be undertaking at some point after the S52T comes out of my RHD touring, a full transplant of an N52B30K / 6 speed from my roommates untimely arsoned 2011 328i. I have a CAN emulator and harness on its way to retain the CAS and make the engine (hopefully) run, but is there anything else I should specifically save from the complete donor chassis?

Pan sounds like by far the toughest solution. I have a steel pan, plan to have that pickup tube spacer milled at work to push it back one main cap and cut a portion of the steel pan out in conjunction with modiftying the subframe and moving the rack/sway bar forward.

Those who have done this with the aluminum rear sump pans, about how many inches did you have to take out in conjunction with the subframe modding?

Are Z4 mount arms the way to go, or is it worth paying that one company that makes 'N54 E30' fabricated arms?

TIA. I think this will be a GREAT power and livability pairing for an E30.

[nando]

Reading on the s85 dct swaps they said that there is very few differences in the code between manual & dct cars unlike smg cars that had huge differences. Unfortunately the only way to see if it will work may be to install it & see. The paddle shifters should be easy, they are a can signal that just needs to be added to the can translator.
Using the n54 head was just a thought to use msd80 that does support dct. Staying with msv70/80 would be best if possible.

There's no difference at all on MSV70 and later cars. All of the code and program is there regardless if you have manual, auto, SMG/DCT. The M cars were a very different animal, MSS54 and MSS60/65 are extremely different from the "normal" cars. Now they're all basically the same thing.. heck, the Z4 runs MSS70 which is 99% identical to MSV70. It even has valvetronic maps although they're used differently, lol

Actually, for that matter, MSD80/81 and later are all rooted in MSV70, and the programming is nearly identical, it just has more maps for turbo and is compiled for Tri-Core CPUs instead of the MPC563. The early dumps of MSD80 are actually named as "MSD70".

[nando]

You can't because it's a non-linear relationship. Pedal input = driver requested torque, not valve lift. At the Valvetronic end, that might mean increasing valve lift, or decreasing it depending on engine load, torque needs from the water pump, steering, alternator, etc. - even if the pedal input remains exactly the same. There is no direct correlation. I mean, by all means, give it a shot if you want. I'm just skeptical it will ever work properly.

Besides that, because throttle input is a safety issue, there's like a million plausibility checks and limp mode fail safe modes that are going to trip you up.

You can change the gear ratio in the DME, that's easy. I don't know about the DCT system, but people tune them so I don't see why you couldn't. The DCT will need a 48 tooth signal for VSS - might be able to get that with a later ABS system, but I don't know if it has to be CAN or not. On the DME side we just run the normal 9 pulse VSS straight into the DME and adjust the scaling factor by 9/48. If that works then you could do the same thing with the DCT I imagine.

FYI, the euro 630i and I think 530i with an N52 were the models available with the SMG/DCT system. They definitely exist (I just looked) In any case, it has the needed maps to interface with it - there are 3 sets, one for MT, one for AT, and one for ACT, the "automatic manual". they later renamed it to DCT in MSD80/81 but it does the same thing like you say, the transmission sends a request to reduce torque as needed.

You guys definitely have a lot of work to do! :)

[Caperix]

Reading on the s85 dct swaps they said that there is very few differences in the code between manual & dct cars unlike smg cars that had huge differences. Unfortunately the only way to see if it will work may be to install it & see. The paddle shifters should be easy, they are a can signal that just needs to be added to the can translator.
Using the n54 head was just a thought to use msd80 that does support dct. Staying with msv70/80 would be best if possible.

[MWC]

It's interesting to me that the factory tuning for valvetronic is so complicated. I could see how the MSV70 could be programmed to take a lot of extra variables into consideration if the goal was the perfect fuel mixture and optimal fuel economy, but based on how it works mechanically I don't see how it wouldn't be possible to set up some kind of simplified relationship between the valvetronic position and pedal position.

I have been trying to find which models came with an N52 and DCT but I'm actually think there weren't any at this point. All models on realoem that came with an N52 do not list the DCT as a transmission options no matter which region I select. If there was one that would be great but it may not solve all my problems. Caperix mentions differential ratios being a problem. If that's the case I will definitely run into that because I'm going to be running a 3.91 or something even higher. The classes I run in are based around power to weight, so running shorter gears is a big advantage. The higher redline potential of the N52 was one of the biggest draws for me in the first place for this reason. ABS is simple as the MK60 is amazing and a fully standalone system on it's own.


I do believe the DCT works by sending power cut and blip requests to the ECU when you call for a shift. At least that is how the major GCUs/standalones on the market operate. Right now if I do go with a standalone I'm leading toward the Maxxecu. They are the only standalone manufacturer I've seen that can integrate with the factory DCT TCU which to me is a big advantage. At least one VSS is required, but I'd have to dig into the pinouts on the DCT connector to see if it's getting VSS directly in the factory application. You can read more about the Maxxecu DCT stuff here if you're curious: https://www.maxxecu.com/webhelp/advanced-bmw_dct.html.

You guys have already shown that the MSV70 can make great power in a track car application and for racers just looking to run an N52 with a manual there's certainly no reason not to use it. It looks like there are still hurdles to overcome with the tuning side of things, but I'm sure that will come in time. For me and my buddy the challenge is the DCT. He's all in on the standalone because they've already made it work at Maxxecu and they are easier to tune, but I would have a hard time ditching the MSV70 if it meant I could run valvetronic and have my cake too. I also think it would make this conversion more accessible for people who are turned off by a standalone. I have a lot more research to do but I appreciate this thread and the discussion here.

[nando]

AFAIK, the DCT tells the DME it's going to shift, and the DME reduces torque (among other things). the DME controls the rev limiter but the DCT controls the shift points.

it works a lot like the automatics do, except for the clutches instead of the torque convertor. I assume paddles would work?

Does the standard DCT really need VSS input? Could it just get it from the DME?

[hoveringuy]

I always thought that DCT was tightly integrated between the ECU and the transmission. I'd like to learn more.
How would this be shifted? Mtech 1 paddle shifters? Strictly automatic?