part 1 of my F/I M20

[Denny]

More updates for the invisible thread...lol

So I finished the idle and part throttle tune for it to be street able. I'm very impressed how nice it drives and sounds day and night from my other setup and its not even tuned yet. It was very worth it I love the low end torque .

So I had to order a new Alternator as mine is dying I had to replace it anyways with a higher amp rated one to accomodate my EPS. So I found a highly reputable company BNR for 120$ I get a nice rebuilt shiny 130AMP BOSCH replacement much better then my old 70AMP one since the EPS takes about 50A when turning.

Got the rack side done, with JIC fittings custom made 4 feet hose rated for 3200 PSI (I need 1500PSI) but better to be safe then sorry. Got the 80AMP relay all wired up and ready just need to tap in the radio 12V acc and also weld a braket to hold the pump in place got buy some ATF fluid..

So EPS install,.,,then when I receive my alternator I will install it along with my new 7" crank pulley cant wait for this because right after I will be going to Julien performance to tune it on the dyno and bring back some number for you all.

oh and here is a nice shot to show you my dedicated belt setup to all the aspiring roots type SC M20 guys...

[Denny]

Well I finished installing my EPS...and of course I assumed my 20+ year old steering rack was up for the task...LOL.. well it started spraying ATF from the 2 hard pipes. So now I have to remove my steering rack and go buy a new rebuilt one..(and removing the rack is a PITA of a job too) but I will get this done so I can move on to the fun stuff...

Now I need to address something here, I dont understand why my posts are invisible and have no interaction I had the impression that a forum philosophies was if you share your experience somebody will help you (always somebody with more experience then you). One thing I do get is PM's from people with a lot of question but for some reason never dare to ask in my thread?!? there are no stupid questions and It would be my pleasure to help others with installing and fabricating a custom Roots type SC on a M20 engine.

But what I want is people to ask them in here so I can answer them here and display the info for everybody. So BLIK ... your PM like I asked you in my thread so i can answer it.

"
Originally Posted by TheBlik
hey man im sorry to anger and not listen to you, but the guys are right i need to get advice from you, now i think im going to stick with the set up i have now and go with a 7 1/2in pulley like you do. (is yours that size?) how can i contact this pulley man of yours, now your advice, should i keep going with this project, do it your way, or just scrap the whole mission, im willing to listen to you and your experience of super charging."

Blik am not angry just frustrated to see somebody not reading and learning and asking questions and going ahead and doing an epic fail SC build and waste you valuable money for nothing.

My advise is this, start over. the M45 you have is way to small for a 2.5L to spin it to make boost you would be at a very uneficient zone too much heat. Minimum is a M62 and best would be a M90 (the one from the thunderbird 3.8L) I went with a M62 because Im going twincharge and dont need the 1.5L of air from the M90...

Dont bother with the the setup I had before...(throttle body after SC) it doesnt work properly and never will trust me on this drivability and reliability, heat, sound everything sucks about that setup so do like I did relocate the throttle body before the SC.

to give you an idea i have a 4.98" M50 crank pulley and a custom (from ZZPERFOMANCE.COM) 2.6" SC 6 rib snout pulley I got the modular so I could change pulleys easy to adjust boost later on, the 2.5L with headers like my engine only gives me 4PSI so I had a custom machined from (MARK CAMPBELL at HOTROD performance / on hotrod lane, ARK, U.S tell him you want the same that Denny had done) 7" 6 rib. Now I should be at 8 +PSI and at 6 ribs instead of 5 a lot better grip.

Now I do plan if interest is there to build a complete bolt on kit with STAGE1 being Roots SC 8PSI and STAGE 2 add a turbo 8PSI for a twincharge 15+ PSI. I have friends in the business that can help me make it happen. I would become a supporting vendor and sell a minimum of 10 kits and want to keep them at less then 2500$ for stage 1. tuning included and dyno sheet coming for proof. now this is my long term plan starting this winter.

anyways hopes this answers some questions....

[kamotors]

reasons why no one posts in this thread is likely because...

A. Not in the project forum section
B. You dont seem to be struggling
C. IT aint crazy enough foo, needs more pictures/0-60's/burnouts etc..

[Denny]

reasons why no one posts in this thread is likely because...

A. Not in the project forum section
B. You dont seem to be struggling
C. IT aint crazy enough foo, needs more pictures/0-60's/burnouts etc..

I think you maybe right on this for A and B. One more thing I think that not a lot have the experience custom building a Roots type SC setup so nobody to really help me or guide or even criticize.

For C I WISH I could display the power it made even at 4PSI but the laws are really strict an they have an are arresting people on youtube in my area thats why no action vids....thats why I will get some at the dyno facilty and the track hopefully bring some excitement and maybe pull in some smart turbo people to help me with the turbo setup side (what turbo to use, size piping, intercooler choice, oil fittings, MS, etc....) of my twin charge setup which will be quite unique and probably the only one in the E30 community

We could certainly join forces as you build a great turbo setup on your car

[downforce22]

Can't you list a youtube video as unlisted so you need a link to watch it?

Either way it seems you know what you are doing with the supercharger, but what do you need help with as far as the turbo goes?

[kamotors]

yeah I'm guessing a twincharged E30 will be very hard to drive, I've been thinking of my turbo lag as a good thing so I can at least get 1% traction. Your going to need some 255's at a minimum to even hook up below 40mph if you plan on running 15psi in a twin charged setup.

[Denny]

Can't you list a youtube video as unlisted so you need a link to watch it?

Either way it seems you know what you are doing with the supercharger, but what do you need help with as far as the turbo goes?

Not sure what you mean by unlisted video but I know there are not a lot of E30 in my area mine stands out like a pimple right in the tip of the nose, if my next vids are not good enough at the track and dyno I will see where I can do a safe burnout acceleration vid somewhere I would love to do one, hell I have been working on this car for years and never enjoyed it so I cant wait to unleash it...

I'm fairly new to turbo's not sure what turbo will be good for my setup, what fittings will I need, what MS version and how to setup, size the intercooler for a front setup, all kinds of bits and pieces, etc... my strengths are developement with roots type superchargers, welding, some electronics(war chip, MAF) and tuning.

I could learn a lot from kamotors turbo setup and learn from the mistakes trial and error hes done just like I did with my SC setup.

[kamotors]

yeah any good build that's worth putting time and money into will need many revisions, anyone can slap a kit together but research and personal experience are needed to get a reliable setup that will be able to kill just about any car that rolls up next to you. I believe I'm about 3x over my original budget but I'm loving every minute so its ok.

[Denny]

yeah I'm guessing a twincharged E30 will be very hard to drive, I've been thinking of my turbo lag as a good thing so I can at least get 1% traction. Your going to need some 255's at a minimum to even hook up below 40mph if you plan on running 15psi in a twin charged setup.

yeah I have been told the same thing before so am guessing it will be a problem traction on a small E30. I will see how 8-10 PSI will turn out in a SC setup only if its all good then the turbo I will buy/pick will need to spool after the SC M20 peak torque of approx 4000-4800 and it will continue to make power from 4500 to 7000 rpm so it will only activate when really needed (drag racing, etc..) to make the big power.
Once I get the dyno tuning done i will scan and post it and show what I want the torque and HP to go with the turbo.

Once am done my full engine/twincharge setup it will be replicated and sold as kits. I will also sell the original engine/twincharge and use the experience acquired and money and go M30 twincharge and go all out.

My goal is to break 11's-12's in the quarter mile (with slicks) and still be able to drive it in the street to work sometimes.

Fun times ahead...

[kamotors]

you should be able to do a 12second 1/4 mile very easy, no need to be twincharged to drag race, with my 2 step I can leave the line with 10-15psi, but its pointless until I get drag tires.

the best part about twincharging has got to be how responsive its going to be, I bet it would make a killer auto-x toy.

[Denny]

you should be able to do a 12second 1/4 mile very easy, no need to be twincharged to drag race, with my 2 step I can leave the line with 10-15psi, but its pointless until I get drag tires.

the best part about twincharging has got to be how responsive its going to be, I bet it would make a killer auto-x toy.

If I can go 12's with just my SC setup am going to be very happy, but the main reason was driving on the street for everyday fun, driving my car with even only 4 PSI with my version 2 setup was amazing the low end torque on a small car like the e30 is a lot of fun, Plus I love being unique hence the roots type SC setup.

Your right the SC setup would be great for auto-x and day to day street driving, with the added turbo (twincharge) I could drag race and break 11's now theres a plan I like, best of 2 worlds in 1 car.

So lets do it :)

[Denny]

Well after blowing up my old 25 year old steering rack. BTW installing a rack is a PITA by yourself. I got my EPS (electric power steering) installed am super impressed with this finally power steering. Also got my new 130A alternator installed success! and last but not least...I got my new 7" pulley installed with my new belt and WOW!! am getting almost 10PSI now... I will be tuning on the street tomorrow night and then on the dyno.

Car feels and sounds like a freaking beast!! :) tomorrow night I will have a video and pics to show you all this stuff installed..

[downforce22]

Not sure what you mean by unlisted video but I know there are not a lot of E30 in my area mine stands out like a pimple right in the tip of the nose, if my next vids are not good enough at the track and dyno I will see where I can do a safe burnout acceleration vid somewhere I would love to do one, hell I have been working on this car for years and never enjoyed it so I cant wait to unleash it...

I'm fairly new to turbo's not sure what turbo will be good for my setup, what fittings will I need, what MS version and how to setup, size the intercooler for a front setup, all kinds of bits and pieces, etc... my strengths are developement with roots type superchargers, welding, some electronics(war chip, MAF) and tuning.

I could learn a lot from kamotors turbo setup and learn from the mistakes trial and error hes done just like I did with my SC setup.

I got my hands on maximum boost and that was a decent start to turbocharging, then a friend recommended forced induction performance tuning and that is a great book. It talk about the entire system (mostly turbos, a little on superchargers) and the effects of your choice on the entire system. I got a copy on amazon for like $40 it is quite interesting.

I am not too familiar with supercharging but I think the principles are mostly the same. Build a setup that optimizes the efficiency of the charge air and compressor so as to minimize heat and avoid detonation. I think you realize this, but for a twin charge system this changes a bit, but the idea is the same. You want a low temp inlet charge. The twin charge will definitely raise the inlet temps on the charge air since it has heat from the exhaust/compressor adding to the heat of the supercharger. I would think you want the most efficient intercooler you can find and the best fuel management to optimize timing and fueling as the fuel curve will not be linear once the valve opens and the switch from super to turbo happens. I'm not sure how the switch works but I am sure there is an easy way to do it. Maybe similar to a twin turbo setup. The end goal is to avoid detonation and you will be fine. Running with poor management will cause detonation.

This build is cool and I want to see what happens, turbo sizing will be critical on this so as to cross over the turbo kicks in right as the supercharger starts to choke. Perfect sizing and execution would make it near impossible to tell the switch. I think a large turbo would could do it for you, but you way want to consider a camshaft so the engine can breathe.

What plans do you have for an exhaust manifold? And as was mention before what about traction?

yeah I have been told the same thing before so am guessing it will be a problem traction on a small E30. I will see how 8-10 PSI will turn out in a SC setup only if its all good then the turbo I will buy/pick will need to spool after the SC M20 peak torque of approx 4000-4800 and it will continue to make power from 4500 to 7000 rpm so it will only activate when really needed (drag racing, etc..) to make the big power.
Once I get the dyno tuning done i will scan and post it and show what I want the torque and HP to go with the turbo.

Once am done my full engine/twincharge setup it will be replicated and sold as kits. I will also sell the original engine/twincharge and use the experience acquired and money and go M30 twincharge and go all out.

My goal is to break 11's-12's in the quarter mile (with slicks) and still be able to drive it in the street to work sometimes.

Fun times ahead...

Cool, not sure why you would build this setup on the m20 then switch to an m30. Those boat anchors are great but your e30 will not be much fun to drive with a combination of gobs of torque and understeer. I understand the increased displacement, but why not do it that way right off the bat?

Well after blowing up my old 25 year old steering rack. BTW installing a rack is a PITA by yourself. I got my EPS (electric power steering) installed am super impressed with this finally power steering. Also got my new 130A alternator installed success! and last but not least...I got my new 7" pulley installed with my new belt and WOW!! am getting almost 10PSI now... I will be tuning on the street tomorrow night and then on the dyno.

Car feels and sounds like a freaking beast!! :) tomorrow night I will have a video and pics to show you all this stuff installed..

Cool glad it running, would like to see it.

[Denny]

I got my hands on maximum boost and that was a decent start to turbocharging, then a friend recommended forced induction performance tuning and that is a great book. It talk about the entire system (mostly turbos, a little on superchargers) and the effects of your choice on the entire system. I got a copy on amazon for like $40 it is quite interesting.

I am not too familiar with supercharging but I think the principles are mostly the same. Build a setup that optimizes the efficiency of the charge air and compressor so as to minimize heat and avoid detonation. I think you realize this, but for a twin charge system this changes a bit, but the idea is the same. You want a low temp inlet charge. The twin charge will definitely raise the inlet temps on the charge air since it has heat from the exhaust/compressor adding to the heat of the supercharger. I would think you want the most efficient intercooler you can find and the best fuel management to optimize timing and fueling as the fuel curve will not be linear once the valve opens and the switch from super to turbo happens. I'm not sure how the switch works but I am sure there is an easy way to do it. Maybe similar to a twin turbo setup. The end goal is to avoid detonation and you will be fine. Running with poor management will cause detonation.

This build is cool and I want to see what happens, turbo sizing will be critical on this so as to cross over the turbo kicks in right as the supercharger starts to choke. Perfect sizing and execution would make it near impossible to tell the switch. I think a large turbo would could do it for you, but you way want to consider a camshaft so the engine can breathe.

What plans do you have for an exhaust manifold? And as was mention before what about traction?


Cool, not sure why you would build this setup on the m20 then switch to an m30. Those boat anchors are great but your e30 will not be much fun to drive with a combination of gobs of torque and understeer. I understand the increased displacement, but why not do it that way right off the bat?


Cool glad it running, would like to see it.

Hey man thanks for the input, you touched a couple of great points and important ones at that. Efficiency of the air; right now I got a little cooler on the side with a fan and it seems ok for the SC setup i have now at 9-10PSI BUT when I add in the turbo I will definitly do some research on what front mount cooler am going to go, any recommendation for a front mount? I think bar and plate are best? what size? I will probably be making 15-18 PSI of compounded boost.

Size of turbo; the size/flow will be key here as the switch over will not be hardware but by using the right turbo to kick in after the SC is out of breath which is right after 3800-4500 rpm where the M20 torque peaks. Any recommendations on a BIG powerful turbo(maybe a Holset X45) that would kick in full after 4500rpm?

I will be building the exhaust manifold myself or if I have the money I would love "Nice&tight" to build me one. 3" piping all the way back with resonator and muffler that I can build no problem.

For the M30 I love the old school M20 and M30 inline six ...something about its simplicity and sound that I really love, plus they have been proven to be able to take a lot of abuse and a lot of boost, plus their cheap to find.

oh and I will need a LOT of help to setup a MS2 with 50-60# injectors since all I have done with engine managements is tune, never wired from scratch.

Now I need to get my car safety so I can plate it in my new province and I most probably start the turbo side end of the fall this year to work on it in my new heated garage during those cold winter months ahead.

Thanks for any help you can give me.

[downforce22]

I'm not too familiar with intercoolers but you generally want a smooth transition/ collector for the charge air to create the lower pressure drop. Each 90 degree bend loses something like .25 psi so try to avoid those. You want a smooth transition into the center of the intercooler. Generally the first half (thickness) of the intercooler does 2/3 of the work so thicker is not necessarily better. You want a larger frontal surface area to scoop up as much cold air as possible. Adequate flow through the intercooler will help heat transfer, but to tightly closed fins will cause turbulence and hurt flow. As with everything, it is a compromise between too many fins and not as much as possible.

The turbo could be a hit and miss thing. I would suggest trying a program called turbo calc to help with that as you enter the engine info and it could be a good starting platform for you. Otherwise try this website http://motorgeek.com/?fullpage=true&page=flowcalc

I think the GT35R looks ok but im not sure how the cross over line works with the twincharge setup. That should be a good starting point though. I need to figure out the MS stuff too haha