Who is running a potent N/A set up?

[funcrew]

any details or tips on this? I'm planning to build a street 2.8 (m52 crank) with a 272 cam soon... or should I go another way?

looking for 'best bang for buck'

This is what I'm planning for my next build. Easy bolt-ons aren't going to do much for an M20. Most of the gains are to be had from the bottom end. Basic recipe is: displacement + compression + cam + computer. Your 2.8 full rebuild paired with megasquirt tuning should run very well and enjoy great longevity, though at less power than an old worn-out s52 or soon-to-explode M20 turbo.

If you build it and don't like it, you can sell it to me.

Here's some info:

http://www.e30zone.net/e30zonewiki/index.php/Building_a_2.8

[LJ851]

While he is one such individual, there are plenty more who would also be good to talk to (though they wouldn't necessarily be on any forum).

Thanks for the great advice!

However, Paul is a unique individual since he is a world class engine builder with tons of experience building mega power engines, makes his own parts like pistons and cams etc., and.....

...happens to love BMW engines, particularly 2 valve ones.


You are into 2002s, Andrew. Point me to another engine builder that has built a comparable sub- 2 liter M10 like Paul's from a few years back.

1900cc M10 with 320bhp NA on alcohol, 290 bhp NA on gasoline.

[Wanganstyle]

What people don't seem to understand is you don't need massive improvements in the head to make alot of hp. You need the correct velocity in the inlet runners, ports, exhaust pipes matched to correct cam timing. You need to have specific targets in mind and then build to suit.

I doubt anything m20 and Na even full racing under a 15k USD budget (for parts and work, not assembly labor) and whatever black magic claimed is possible can even come close to a S54 - a Stock S54 on stock ecu (270rwhp)

the s54 is perfectly optimized out of the box. everything is great- cams, inductuion, pistons, rotating assembly. Great oiling I dont understand how some some home brew hocus pocus on a 12v sohc can be anything close to the stock, under utilized s54.

S54b23 with 3200cc + 11.5:1 compression is more than 100hp/liter

I do not think any of these engine building hocus pocus heros can make that happen with a m20 sohc.

[e30trooper]

off topic but 12v's sounds better :P

[abused]

Forget N/A go turbo You would like it, you can make a reliable daily with a turbo, im doing 22 lbs on the stock motor( the only reason i do that is because i don't care if my m20 blows(if it does u can pick up another m20 for 200-400 bucks) i am working on another m20 drop it in) m20 are really good to handle boost can make a reliable daily with 13-15 lb no prob.

Not trying to persuade you to go turbo but i think its just the preference on what you want, and how much you want to spend. I was in the same situation two years ago i chose turbo.

here is the little sample of my day of tune.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GGecTXYsw-4

[digger]

I doubt anything m20 and Na even full racing under a 15k USD budget (for parts and work, not assembly labor) and whatever black magic claimed is possible can even come close to a S54 - a Stock S54 on stock ecu (270rwhp)

the s54 is perfectly optimized out of the box. everything is great- cams, inductuion, pistons, rotating assembly. Great oiling I dont understand how some some home brew hocus pocus on a 12v sohc can be anything close to the stock, under utilized s54.

S54b23 with 3200cc + 11.5:1 compression is more than 100hp/liter

I do not think any of these engine building hocus pocus heros can make that happen with a m20 sohc.

Firstly lets clarify a stock S54 is 338hp SAE ( euro version) and we are talking about reaching 300hp or a bit more, not S54 hp which is a significant amount more.

there are people building S54 with 350rwhp on stock cams............you are forgetting that the S54 has many considerations such emissions, economy, reliability and driveability reasons that mean that while it is a great production engine it is pretty watered down in terms of absolute potential. It is the same for S65 and S85 these are not on the limit engines by any means simple bolt ons produce good results.

You really need to start looking at the results that old school pushrod guys get as they are great at getting the best from 2V per cylinders. We are talking engines that will never have the emissions, economy, reliability and driveability of a modern 24V but could be used on the street but that is a given.

Let’s look at this scientifically a 3.1L making 300bhp is less than 100hp/L production engines that achieve this do so at 7000-7500rpm. At 7000rpm an engine making 225lb-ft of torque gets 300bhp, and at 7500rpm you need 210lb-ft of torque. A 3.1L can easily make 240-250lb-ft at crank.The question becomes whether you maintain the torque to a high enough level by 7000-7500rpm and I think it is possible but you need to tune the cam, exhaust, intake for this rpm. The head needs to flow about ~190CFM with proper velocity and the chamber and piston need to match to give proper squish.

btw there is a local guy i know with a 2.7L that on a dyno day made 265rwhp on the same machine a S50B32 made 273rwhp and another guys 3.1L M20 made 249rwhp and another 2.8L M20 made 181rwhp so the power is getting up there.

I made 218rwhp on the same machine a stock S50B30euro made 212rwhp this was a dyno dynamics. On another dyno dynamics I also made 220rwhp on the same machine a M54B30 made 175rwhp, M52’s make 155rwhp so there is a lot of potential in the old M20. I use the old catcam 283/273 camshaft, with stock intake and conservative CR and MM head which is at best a mild port job with little on the exhaust side, I also still use the old dizzy and standard style of batch injection so there a lot of room for improvement if needed.

[SkiFree]

Thanks for the great advice!

However, Paul is a unique individual since he is a world class engine builder with tons of experience building mega power engines, makes his own parts like pistons and cams etc., and.....

...happens to love BMW engines, particularly 2 valve ones.


You are into 2002s, Andrew. Point me to another engine builder that has built a comparable sub- 2 liter M10 like Paul's from a few years back.

1900cc M10 with 320bhp NA on alcohol, 290 bhp NA on gasoline.

No need for sarcasm.

Simply put I'd like here more about your M20 carb build in here, not another mention of Paul. That motor M10 he built was pretty beastly I understand why it's your benchmark, but I'd be happy to point you in direction of a couple other guys that would certainly be comparable if you PM me.

[Wanganstyle]

No need for sarcasm.

Simply put I'd like here more about your M20 carb build in here, not another mention of Paul. That motor M10 he built was pretty beastly I understand why it's your benchmark, but I'd be happy to point you in direction of a couple other guys that would certainly be comparable if you PM me.

agreed. no more fan boi-ism to snake oil engine builders.
engine = engine, its just an air pump.

no magic bullet here, the DNA baseline (2v) 4 stroke gas engine is the same.

I am actually afraid of engine builders to "build own parts". I'd rather have Piston companies and Rod companies make those items than some random snake oil guy.

All the engineers I know who work at firms tuning engines buy top items from industry suppliers. It is not the engine tuners job to make parts- there are tons of parts already made and complete engineering firms producing items.

Lone "genuis" vs Organized machine = fail.

[nando]

AFAIK paul burke designs the pistons, he doesn't manufacture them - he sends them off to a pro piston manufacturer to be made to his specs.

I've seen some of his stuff. It's not snake oil.

also, the big piston manufactures are not doing R&D on high performance M20s. Even if you could get a performance piston off the shelf, it's going to be generic.

[LJ851]

Lone "genuis" vs Organized machine = fail.

Wow. You really crack me up Wangan.

Every major breakthough in our society has come from individuals and not the "organized machine" as you put it.

The reason engine builders design and build their own parts is because they don't exist otherwise. It is generally a waste of time and money to make parts someone else is making.

I know that you never know the person you are talking to on the interweb, but i have been professionally building racing and high performance engines for the last decade. Long enough to know when someone is talking out their ass.

I am fully aware that an engine is an engine, but most engine builders are engine assemblers (organized machine) and very few spend the time to chase down the difficult to find horsepower. Especially on an old bmw engine with no market to sell to.

How can you write anyone off without knowing anything about them?
I am interested in hearing about anyone who is making power out of old bmw 2 valves, but digger is the only one to talk about anything substantial so far.

[Werks 1]

No need for sarcasm.

Simply put I'd like here more about your M20 carb build in here, not another mention of Paul. That motor M10 he built was pretty beastly I understand why it's your benchmark, but I'd be happy to point you in direction of a couple other guys that would certainly be comparable if you PM me.

Always interested in finding quality engine guys to work on my stuff.
Could you PM me with the names of the people you would recommend.


Thanks in advance.

[browntown]

Didn't jordan build the super duper m20 ten years ago with all the designer shit like titanium valve springs? Where did he end up on the dyno?

[Werks 1]

agreed. no more fan boi-ism to snake oil engine builders.
engine = engine, its just an air pump.

no magic bullet here, the DNA baseline (2v) 4 stroke gas engine is the same.

I am actually afraid of engine builders to "build own parts". I'd rather have Piston companies and Rod companies make those items than some random snake oil guy.

All the engineers I know who work at firms tuning engines buy top items from industry suppliers. It is not the engine tuners job to make parts- there are tons of parts already made and complete engineering firms producing items.

Lone "genuis" vs Organized machine = fail.

News to me, do you or someone you know have an issue with any parts or engines produced by Paul Burke?

Sorry OP just curious.

[einstein57]

Boost it. When you get tired of that and want more torque, toss in a s52 crank, forged pistons, and a new cam.

[digger]

Didn't jordan build the super duper m20 ten years ago with all the designer shit like titanium valve springs? Where did he end up on the dyno?

he did what any decent 2.7/2.8 build should do.

more cc
more CR
bigger cam
proper piston / chamber compatibility
nice tuned exhaust
headwork
a custom tune

was about 195whp

also so fernflex thread with a custom tune and ditch of afm he'd be making similar numbers.

start doing the same on a 3.1L and get into bigger cams and inlet tuning and truly getting everything working together and there is power to be had in the topend.

If you want a screamer a M20B20 could make power at 8k or higher easily enough though won't be able to match the M10 at the end of the day.

Knowing what i know now the only parts of my engine i'd be using is the M54B30 crank and the headers.