S14 - Overrrated or Underrated?

[NZM3]

The M3 M3 is not designed for pulling out from corners and shops but as a road car it drives really nice especially from 3rd gear onwards and the styling is enough to make many people wanting to own a E30 M3.
My 1987 M3 is superb and easy to drive with a lot of enjoyment, our other machine is another really special machine and fills the gaps of torque down low etc and also makes more power than I can use AMG 2012 C63

Dave.

[BlackbirdM3]

sounds like mine's not in great nick, then. I only get 200 miles to a tank :(

would love to compare them back to back to understand what they should feel like. I will admit - I have a US S50 car here as well, and even though it's not a "true M motor" it is much more fun to drive.

Hard to say. What do your plugs look like? What cams do you have? It might be something out of tune in the Bosch Motronic setup. Might also be an issue with the chip you are running. (All reasons I hate EFI) I can say that I can make it from Yreka Ca to Vancouver Washington on I5 on a tank of fuel. (330.8 miles) When I first bought my car I made it from the Canadian Border to Napa on 3 fill ups, with a detour to McMinnville OR. I've gone the opposite way on 3 tanks as well. Needless to say, I've pulled that sort of mileage multiple times. They weren't isolated experiences.

Will

[BlackbirdM3]

Sounds like a 4 banger.... 4 banger is forever meh- with the exception of some carbed ones.

Yet the 4 banger sounds 100% better than any V6 or V8 ever made. I'll take the sound of a S14 over ANY v8 any day of the week. Straight 6s and V12s, now those are sweet.

[Higa]

Sounds like a 4 banger.... 4 banger is forever meh- with the exception of some carbed ones.

[kronus]

Isn't much fun to drive on the street? Say what? Where else are you going to drive it? Do you need to go 150 mph on the street? Nope. Its a ton of fun to drive on the street. I've been doing so for the past 120K miles. Its not a stoplight drag race car, if that is what you want, go buy a POS rustang or corvette. The M3 is the wrong car for you, and you will never be happy with it. Oh, you want to go roost a back road who's longest straight is 200 yards? Yes! Now you have the right car. Yep, 5K rpm in 3rd gear, and NOTHING will touch it. Just running errands around town? It will happily do it without complaint. Running down the freeway for 18 hrs on end? Yep it will do that just fine, but it will be happiest spinning along at 3400 rpm with a light load on the engine. Oh, it will repay you for your choice buy pulling 350+ miles between fill ups.

An S54 will eat its rod bearings because it feels like it. There was a class action lawsuit over this issue. The S52 isn't a real S engine, the S50 is, but isn't a US engine, the S38 is a great engine, but its the wrong choice for an M3, and doesn't fit without damaging the hood. Sure, there are other choices, but when you get right down to it, the S14 is a very good, detuned race engine. It likes revs, but will be totally driveable if you put around town an 2K rpm. Lets face it running around town isn't fun. Okay you can run around in 2nd gear and then the car is just urging to go, but oh, you are stuck in traffic, so not going anywhere anyway.

The S14 is a combination of the F1 engine and the M88 from the M1. Both engines are legendary, so the combination of the two is equally legendary. You just have to understand it.

sounds like mine's not in great nick, then. I only get 200 miles to a tank :(

would love to compare them back to back to understand what they should feel like. I will admit - I have a US S50 car here as well, and even though it's not a "true M motor" it is much more fun to drive.

[2mAn]

The reason I didn't buy it was that I was completely underwhelmed by how it drove. I actually kinda thought something must be wrong with it. It wasn't until years later when I drove my first M635 (Dan Erwin's car) that I realized I'd never revved that first car beyond 3500RPM and the M88/S38 doesn't even start to wake up until 3800+. I dailied the M635 I wound up buying for years - it's a really good driver. And when you do rev it, it's a beautiful thing...

Almost describes my test-drive of my first BMW, an E34 M5. Never abused it on the test drive. Felt disappointed. When the seller and I parted ways, he promptly left redlining 1st & 2nd and with its B&B exhaust, I realized why I was underwhelmed.



I immediately bought that car and while the motor was exciting, the ///M tax and the weight of the car killed the fun. Kept it for a year and sold it to buy my first E30, a 325es.

Never looked back...

[iXBeater]

I have heard this a lot — the E30 M3 isn’t as much fun to drive on the street. Would it benefit (at lower revs) from different transmission or gear ratios?

Totally hypothetical here. Just curious.

I've been a fan of the E24 since I was a kid (in the 1980's...), and not long after college a used red M6 was on the lot of a dealership I visited a lot. I couldn't believe they let me drive it. My wife (who is extremely tight with money) said more than once "You should buy this car - it's your dream car." (Thank God I didn't take the bait - we definitely couldn't afford the car and absolutely wouldn't have been able to afford to maintain it)

The reason I didn't buy it was that I was completely underwhelmed by how it drove. I actually kinda thought something must be wrong with it. It wasn't until years later when I drove my first M635 (Dan Erwin's car) that I realized I'd never revved that first car beyond 3500RPM and the M88/S38 doesn't even start to wake up until 3800+. I dailied the M635 I wound up buying for years - it's a really good driver. And when you do rev it, it's a beautiful thing...

In any case, these days I also have the S52-swapped E30, and it runs like a scaled cat pretty much all the time. It's fun in a can 97% of the time, but there are times when I don't mind the sedate wolf-in-sheep's-clothing nature of my M635.

The point of all that is the S14 and the rest of the E30 M3 drivetrain was designed that way on purpose. I wouldn't go to the lengths of a transmission or diff swap for some perkiness. If you want that, there are different motors to start with.

[E30 Wagen]

the S38 is a great engine, but its the wrong choice for an M3, and doesn't fit without damaging the hood.

I can't stop dreaming about the s38 as the ultimate swap, though, it's a beast and my favorite sounding engine. I've been "building" this swap in my head for a while now, looking at virtually everything that could be done to shave weight off the engine and front of the car.. it'd cost a fortune hehe.

[e30davie]

I went for a drive in a 2.5L m3 once, years ago. It was a bloody riot at any speed on the street. makes all the cool noises and has plenty of go to get a small 80s car scooting along. This idea that its "not much fun on the street" seems absurd.

but a 4age 16v is a riot on the street too, half the horsepower if not less, 1/10th of the cost.....if not less. so I dunno, maybe my definition of "fun" is wrong.

The "modern" reviews of e30 m3s seems to paint it as quite underwhelming. and i suppose it is against modern options, but thats also with stocko suspension. they do look seem a bit "boaty" with stock springs. the one I went in had some fancy dampers and springs, it was reaaally good with them.

[BlackbirdM3]

I have heard this a lot — the E30 M3 isn’t as much fun to drive on the street. Would it benefit (at lower revs) from different transmission or gear ratios?

Totally hypothetical here. Just curious.

Isn't much fun to drive on the street? Say what? Where else are you going to drive it? Do you need to go 150 mph on the street? Nope. Its a ton of fun to drive on the street. I've been doing so for the past 120K miles. Its not a stoplight drag race car, if that is what you want, go buy a POS rustang or corvette. The M3 is the wrong car for you, and you will never be happy with it. Oh, you want to go roost a back road who's longest straight is 200 yards? Yes! Now you have the right car. Yep, 5K rpm in 3rd gear, and NOTHING will touch it. Just running errands around town? It will happily do it without complaint. Running down the freeway for 18 hrs on end? Yep it will do that just fine, but it will be happiest spinning along at 3400 rpm with a light load on the engine. Oh, it will repay you for your choice buy pulling 350+ miles between fill ups.

An S54 will eat its rod bearings because it feels like it. There was a class action lawsuit over this issue. The S52 isn't a real S engine, the S50 is, but isn't a US engine, the S38 is a great engine, but its the wrong choice for an M3, and doesn't fit without damaging the hood. Sure, there are other choices, but when you get right down to it, the S14 is a very good, detuned race engine. It likes revs, but will be totally driveable if you put around town an 2K rpm. Lets face it running around town isn't fun. Okay you can run around in 2nd gear and then the car is just urging to go, but oh, you are stuck in traffic, so not going anywhere anyway.

The S14 is a combination of the F1 engine and the M88 from the M1. Both engines are legendary, so the combination of the two is equally legendary. You just have to understand it.

[reelizmpro]

I have heard this a lot — the E30 M3 isn’t as much fun to drive on the street. Would it benefit (at lower revs) from different transmission or gear ratios?

Totally hypothetical here. Just curious.

Yes, there are close ratio transmissions but they are expensive. Some people installed 4.27 and 4.45 differentials which helps but they also have to shift more. There is a trade off.

[strickland]

I have heard this a lot — the E30 M3 isn’t as much fun to drive on the street. Would it benefit (at lower revs) from different transmission or gear ratios?

Totally hypothetical here. Just curious.

[kronus]

I have one. It has bad harmonics I've been chasing for a while. It's gutless during normal driving. Maintenance items can be hard to come by. Makes cool noises tho.

Thinking about putting an S54 in instead.

[strickland]

I’m still loving this thread. Who else has kept the S14 & modified it, rather than swapping the engine?

[packratbimmer]

Clearly BMW built the M3 for the track or autobahn. It is a high reving horsepower engine sitting in front of a Getrag 265 and a medium case 4.10 differential. Those specs pretty much sum it up for me.