So long e30 M3s...

[reelizmpro]

I apologize in advance for the novel, but I'm laid up recovering from wisdom teeth surgery. I've seen / ridden in Hansel's car and the mods in no way take away from it's E30 M3 pedigree.

I don't have an E30 M3 (yet)...

What do you base your assessment from? Sorry, anyone who says an engine swap doesn't take away from the E30 M3 pedigree doesn't fully understand (or care about) what made the car special. Take two cars...S50 318/325 and S50 M3. Both cars will drive the same except one looks cooler. They will have the same characteristics. You do realize all of the legend surrounding the M3 is due to it's success with the S14, right? The formula of a lightweight, balanced, high strung engine proved to be successful and that's what made an E30 M3 an E30 M3. It's a momentum car...a driver's car completely opposite from the "let's just shoehorn the biggest engine we have" mentality.

[Motorsports]

Few people here understand the whole concept of the e30 m3 here. Reelizmpro explained it perfectly.

[Cloudbase]

I've ridden in a few S14 M3's along w/ Hansel's car on the track. I've also driven quite a few S50 swapped E30's. They are different animals for sure, but I don't think the difference hurts the car enough to take away from it. If people want to swap their cars due to the expense / power of the S14, I understand it.

Later in my post, I agree that the lighter weight, better balance, and high strung nature of the S14 are attributes that define the E30 M3 and attributes that I prefer. I always prefer light weight to power. Our Chump Car is a stripped 1st gen MR2. It probably weights under 2000lbs and is certainly a momentum car. All of that said, I can understand why people swap their cars. Being that I already have a more powerful M Car, an S14 M3 will likely be what I seek when I can make it happen for the reasons stated above.

[Motorsports]

I understand perfectly why people swap their motors. I just dont get why people swap the s14 for a later motor, then when it comes the time to sell. They expect to get 30 to 40k.

[Eric]

So does a Dinan Turbo M3 or an RMS supercharged M3 fall into the same category of a swapper? They still retain the S14, but obviously change the characteristic of that motor.

My view on swaps: I'd never take out an S14 if I had an S14 powered E30 M3, but I wouldn't (haven't) turn a cheek at a good swapped car, or build a swapped car that otherwise would have been scrap metal.

Do you think the '02 guys have the same argument about dudes that are putting S14's in that chassis?

[tom d]

Do you think the '02 guys have the same argument about dudes that are putting S14's in that chassis?

probably, at least some of them.

the 2002 although an important car for BMW does not have the historical significance of the E30M3. but at it's core the S14 is really a M10 and putting one in a 2002 therefore would be correct, just not period correct. IMHO.

[reelizmpro]

So does a Dinan Turbo M3 or an RMS supercharged M3 fall into the same category of a swapper? They still retain the S14, but obviously change the characteristic of that motor.

My view on swaps: I'd never take out an S14 if I had an S14 powered E30 M3, but I wouldn't (haven't) turn a cheek at a good swapped car, or build a swapped car that otherwise would have been scrap metal.

Do you think the '02 guys have the same argument about dudes that are putting S14's in that chassis?

It's obviously not a swap. Modified S14's are fair game but some people believe that in the spirit of BMW Motorsport in a time they believed in NA horsepower, that the S14 should be kept NA. ERT/RMS both had supercharger kits but only a few cars had them. I think there were reliability issues that ultimately did them in. People didn't necessarily want to tear the engine apart and lower the compression so they could run safe levels of boost so they were just bolting these kits on, running 7-8 PSI with 10.5:1 or higher compression with the stock Motronic. The kit was also expensive for what it was especially the Dinan turbo. Like it or not, if HP was the reason for an engine swap, then FI took care of that and then some, without resorting to a complete engine swap so it is more acceptable. At least you still have the correct engine powering the car and the kit is a bolt on/off affair. Today, it's just great to still see the S14 in an M3 FI'd or not.

I share your views as well except I have passed on a few swapped M3's. I felt like I was paying a premium for a car that wasn't "all there." A car that could be reproduced easily out of a non M3. In retrospect, I probably should have bought them since the price was right but all 3 needed work. Another thing is there's no way to verify mileage or history when people swap in a used engine since 99% of the time the odometer wasn't recalibrated if it was working at all.

As for the duece's...maybe the Ireland Engineering guys can chime in on that. All I know is it would be a damn shame to see a swapped 2002 Turbo.

[einhander]

The biggest issue I have is people who swap out tired/busted S14s for slightly less tired S5x engines. (That and, you know, BMW engineered the car for a reason and then the shadetree guys think they can do better...)

It's not saving money when you consider the time and money that goes into doing a swap correctly. If you rebuild the swapped engine and then have it put in, you're behind the curve financially and, when you factor in the possible decline in value of the car, you're even further back.

But that's okay, I suppose, because like you said, these guys then think they can fetch $30k.

[SkiFree]

probably, at least some of them.

the 2002 although an important car for BMW does not have the historical significance of the E30M3. but at it's core the S14 is really a M10 and putting one in a 2002 therefore would be correct, just not period correct. IMHO.

Couldn't disagree more as to which was more important to BMW, but obviously its pretty pointless to argue given its a matter of perspective rather than something quantifiable. As for 2002's with engines swapped in ..... How the 2002 came to exist in the first place was because a couple of BMW guys swapped in their 2000cs 2.0L into their 1600's. So I think swapping engines into 2002's follows the spirit of the car.

As for a period correct dual cam "period-correct" engine. There's always the Schnitzer dual cam head if you can handle a $25,000 race engine in your 2002. http://www.alpinabmw2002.com/search/...TZER%20Engines

[Mr_Tripp]

The problem with this thread is that you're arguing pure perception and that is impossible.

So, if I ever own a E30 M3 it will look exactly like this.... with the S14 at home perfectly built on a stand and a N/A S38B38 under the hood. Thats my dream you all can judge it as you see fit. /THREAD :)

[einhander]

The problem with this thread is that you're arguing pure perception and that is impossible.

So, if I ever own a E30 M3 it will look exactly like this.... with the S14 at home perfectly built on a stand and a N/A S38B38 under the hood. Thats my dream you all can judge it as you see fit. /THREAD :)

So what you're saying is that you want a stupid looking M3 with the wrong engine?

Cool, bro.

[BlackbirdM3]

So what you're saying is that you want a stupid looking M3 with the wrong engine?

Cool, bro.

Hahahaha, awesome.

Will

[Pac1373]

I think that e30 M3's that have been modified at this time to be a track toy is one thing, but say, to find an unmolested M3, and then modify it at this point would from a collectors or purists stand point be, honestly, stupid.

I went through the muscle car thing as a teen, and I watched my ability to "almost" afford a big block Cuda' evaporate in a couple of short years.
the thing is, enthusiast car appreciation (financial) is driven by nostalgia, and the M3 is almost certainly going to develop parallel the muscle car market imho. hence, original mint or rotisserie "factory" rest is where the money will be. m3 values will ALL increase, but the factory correct cars will bring the real cheddar... will an e30 m3 ever auction for a million plus, I would say no, but I once saw a 70' Hemi cuda' for sale for $11k in good driver status...

if you have huge balls and pockets to match, fuckit, weld in the cage and hot lap the shit out of it.

at the end of the day, it is your car, do with it what you want, right?

[Ray Smoodiver]

The problem with this thread is that you're arguing pure perception and that is impossible.

So, if I ever own a E30 M3 it will look exactly like this.... with the S14 at home perfectly built on a stand and a N/A S38B38 under the hood. Thats my dream you all can judge it as you see fit. /THREAD :)

[jhaurimn]

So what you're saying is that you want a stupid looking M3 with the wrong engine?

Cool, bro.