e30 values vs modificaitons

[nrubenstein]

Here's the reality:

As a general matter, OEMish cars will have the best resale value.

Highly modified cars sell on a car + fractional cost of mods scale. The mods are worth whatever someone is willing to pay for them. That ends up somewhere between zero and the full cost, depending on whether the buyer wants them. As a result, highly modded cars can sell for big $ to unicorn buyers. The challenge, though, is that finding these unicorn buyers is not always easy. They are also *very* sensitive to the quality of an install job and the overall condition of the car.

[reelizmpro]

that's just not true though. The diagnostics on any decent modern standalone is far and away going to be superior to what Motronic 1.x can do (for example, detailed datalogging, real time sensor readout, and yes, diagnostics abilities). Even Megasquirt has a CEL these days.

If you were talking about a modern factory DME, then sure, I would side with you - most standalones would be a significant downgrade in capabilities from something like MSS65. But it's not like the factory DME on E30s is especially robust. My OBC functions just fine, btw, and while passing smog would be tougher I don't think it's impossible (it's not like the E30's OBD port does a whole lot).



again, I could give the keys to any random person to drive my car and they would never know it wasn't the stock computer. There's really no reason they would need to know how to tune it - it's already tuned, it's no different than having a static tune on a stock computer. If they were going to change something on the engine that required tweaking, they would have to take it to a tuning specialist either way. The main difference is mine by far easier to adjust.

I'm not saying all aftermarket computers are installed and tuned properly - of course not. But you can't lump everything into one basket. And yeah, obviously if you're the type that just takes their car to a shop all the time - a car like mine would be a poor choice, and not only because of the engine management. But I think in general, stock or not, any E30 is going to be a poor choice for that type of person. That's why they make appliances like the Toyota Camry. :p

You're missing my point. Imagine someone trying to do a stomp test on your car. Get it? Imagine trying to troubleshoot a system you are unfamiliar with? My turbo car for instance is Ms 1 PnP/Turbo'd by the previous owner. The MPG gauge in the tach doesn't work accurately, OBC MPG/RANGE/AVG MPH do not work and there is no CEL. Now, if the car was stock Motronic, I'd know exactly how to troubleshoot it but it being MS'd is a variable. Is it as simple as a bad MPG gauge in the tach? or is it because MS isn't passing the signals through? I haven't looked into it.

Edit: Ely aka RS4PRO - "correct, you loose the instant fuel economy gauge in the tach, and the range/fuel economy functions of the OBC. Some people have been able to get them working again, by just feeding the signal from one batch of the injectors to the cluster but I haven't tried."

Having these functions are low priority for me but I just figured that's part of running a standalone. At any rate, having that extra variable can complicate things is all I'm saying. I am willing to get my hands dirty but others might not.

My buddy had a heavily modded turbo M3 you may be familiar with that's been to virtually all Euro import shops in SoCal and after thousands of dollars, years of labor, etc finally had enough and sold it. It just never ran right and they tried a few engine management systems...still are. The Ls3 M3 also is another example. It's not that the systems aren't good, much of it is the implementation.

[Julien]

One of the reasons I made this thread was this car:

Pretty solid and well built but I took an absolute bath on it. $8k+ and hundreds of hours of work invested, sold for about half that. I think that if I would have forgone the 5 lug swap, fancy brakes, fancy(ish) coils, fancy wheels and just put some clean ronal LS on it and maybe fix the light body work, I would have gotten the same $.

We all know that you don't get money back on mods, but there is a curve. I think just cleaning a car up you may get most back or even make some. But the crazier you go, the less you get back. In other words the multiplier of money invested/returned lowers each tier up.

75% stage 1
50% stage 2
lol% stage 3
(pulled these numbers out of my waffles)

*shrug*

[Trelos]

Wow 4k for that beauty :(
I have over 30k into mine and no way in hell I'd get that.
Maybe if I hold onto it for another 18 years. But then adjusted for inflation I might get less lol.

[jake5]

I think It just comes down to what is: What is it worth to you?

Do you want an art project? a track car? horse power? Up to you.
if you want an investment, find a low miles matching numbers car (everything, not just motor) with the most rare original factory options you can find and stick it in your garage, the more original the better, and it will be worth a ton in ten years.

I think the one guy nailed it. Mod cars go for more but you will never get your investment out, unless you live on craig's and are very patient.

I battled with this myself because I really hate to cut into my stock beauty vert. But then I realized I am in it to enjoy the car, so I'll loose my ass building a track vert s52, big deal I am not an investor, right?

[exhaust]

Like a few people have said, it comes down to what someone is willing to pay and the quality of the car. A completely OEM car that is haggard will always go for less than a cleaner build and vice versa.

It's also a matter of time. You will be sitting a lot long waiting for a bite on a $10,000 car than you will for a $5,000 car.

[nando]

One of the reasons I made this thread was this car:

Pretty solid and well built but I took an absolute bath on it. $8k+ and hundreds of hours of work invested, sold for about half that. I think that if I would have forgone the 5 lug swap, fancy brakes, fancy(ish) coils, fancy wheels and just put some clean ronal LS on it and maybe fix the light body work, I would have gotten the same $.

We all know that you don't get money back on mods, but there is a curve. I think just cleaning a car up you may get most back or even make some. But the crazier you go, the less you get back. In other words the multiplier of money invested/returned lowers each tier up.

75% stage 1
50% stage 2
lol% stage 3
(pulled these numbers out of my waffles)

*shrug*

then don't sell it. problem solved. :p

but, I think you're right, that you don't get money back on expensive mods. even if you do a nice S54 swap, it's probably going to cost you more than you can get back out of it if you sell it.

You're missing my point. Imagine someone trying to do a stomp test on your car. Get it? Imagine trying to troubleshoot a system you are unfamiliar with? My turbo car for instance is Ms 1 PnP/Turbo'd by the previous owner. The MPG gauge in the tach doesn't work accurately, OBC MPG/RANGE/AVG MPH do not work and there is no CEL. Now, if the car was stock Motronic, I'd know exactly how to troubleshoot it but it being MS'd is a variable. Is it as simple as a bad MPG gauge in the tach? or is it because MS isn't passing the signals through? I haven't looked into it.

Edit: Ely aka RS4PRO - "correct, you loose the instant fuel economy gauge in the tach, and the range/fuel economy functions of the OBC. Some people have been able to get them working again, by just feeding the signal from one batch of the injectors to the cluster but I haven't tried."

Well, presumably you would know at least enough that the stomp test isn't going to work (all you'd have to do is pop the hood for clues). What I meant was more that as far as driving the car goes, you couldn't tell. Heh, I bet the stomp test doesn't work in half of the stock cars anyway, because of broken or misadjusted TPS's. :p

the MPG is basically just an injector pulse signal - and the gage is scaled based off the injector size. all you have to do is hook it up, if your injectors are stock. If they are not, then hoveringguy makes a trick circuit that scales the signal correctly for you.

Having these functions are low priority for me but I just figured that's part of running a standalone. At any rate, having that extra variable can complicate things is all I'm saying. I am willing to get my hands dirty but others might not.

My buddy had a heavily modded turbo M3 you may be familiar with that's been to virtually all Euro import shops in SoCal and after thousands of dollars, years of labor, etc finally had enough and sold it. It just never ran right and they tried a few engine management systems...still are. The Ls3 M3 also is another example. It's not that the systems aren't good, much of it is the implementation.

it's hard to know what his specific issues were, obviously, but there are hundreds of other examples of cars running standalone that don't have any problems. Of course there can be issues - just like there can be problems that are difficult to track down when using an original, 30 year old computer, which has minimal diagnostics capabilities.

[Staszek]

I figured I would weigh in here since I will have a Stage 3ish car when I am done.

I really think it depends on what has been done and how it looks. I have seen pristine low mileage all stock E30's go for really high money, example someone bought a 318 the other day for $24k, I was really surprised at that.

If you do a half ass swap and the interior and the paint are bad you will probably not get much. Swap or not the visuals of a car sells it more then anything.

I dont think I will get everything out of what I am putting into this car because I have been going fairly high end on parts, but I am keeping my car OEM looking inside and out with upgrades, reupholstered M3 seats front and rear (leather), leather door cards, Mtech II wheel and also full Mtech II kit, full repaint, new carpet etc. If I left it there and just cleaned up the engine I think I could sell for really good money (never planning on selling btw).

My opinion, is if I do all that and have a cleanly done S54 swap with full suspension refresh and brake upgrade I would get even more since the car would look OEM period correct with a rocket under the hood.

But I do think I may have a slightly smaller audience and would have to wait longer to get the price I want.

Just my opinion, I still think stage 1/2 pristine OEM car with all OEM+ mods will gain the most, but I dont think the Stage 3 will be that far behind it just depends on what it really looks like and how it works at the end.

I guess what I am trying to say in my rambling is you cannot put all Stage 3 in the same category, some will get top dollar some will be junk.

[Dj Buttchug]

I have seen pristine low mileage all stock E30's go for really high money, example someone bought a 318 the other day for $24k, I was really surprised at that.

This. IMO an unmolested all stock e30 in pristine condition will bring more than a tastefully modded decent example.

Im at a point where I look at vehicles differently now. The more stock it is the more interest I have and the more money I would potentially be willing to throw down when purchasing.

[Staszek]

This. IMO an unmolested all stock e30 in pristine condition will bring more than a tastefully modded decent example.

Im at a point where I look at vehicles differently now. The more stock it is the more interest I have and the more money I would potentially be willing to throw down when purchasing.

I agree although it depends on the vehicle. E30 M3 sure, 3.0 CS yes, regular E30 a little but not really in the same league.

You have to keep it in context of the car.

[Dj Buttchug]

I agree although it depends on the vehicle. E30 M3 sure, 3.0 CS yes, regular E30 a little but not really in the same league.

You have to keep it in context of the car.

Great point. For some time now all Is cars 318/325 really have taken a market turn in stock to somewhat stock form.

If you have an all stock 318is in showroom condition or very close you are sitting on a little bit of money.

[Staszek]

Great point. For some time now all Is cars 318/325 really have taken a market turn in stock to somewhat stock form.

If you have an all stock 318is in showroom condition or very close you are sitting on a little bit of money.

True, mine is a 325is I am mostly making it OEM+ because it was to much of a mess to go all stock.

I am looking through for that 3.0 as my next project, that will be all stock!

[reelizmpro]

Nando,

I remember that Hoveringguy thread now that you mention it but now I have to get an extra circuit hooked up and then play with the scale to get somewhat accurate results. It's too bad that wasn't part of the "plug and play" aspect.

[flyboyx]

remember a few years ago, there was that member vazbro who built the really nice e30m3 cabrio with s50? does anyone know how much he sold that car for? seems like it was around 40k? this was long before a regular m3 was worth over 20 grand.

[djjerme]

Wasn't that on eBay recently for sale again?